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Post by DMC on Feb 2, 2016 15:54:18 GMT
Not a problem per say, but just a question to pose.
At your tables do you allow people to multiclass for absolutely no "good reason" whatsoever? Like say you have a Wizard that's 5th level and he gets enough XP to get 6th. Without any training or any story background support do you allow them to take a level of something else where all of a sudden, miraculously, they just have these new skills and abilities without having supported it in any way in the narrative and story?
To me, learned classes (FTR/ROG/WIZ, etc) are a lot harder to justify. Especially if there's no one in the party that has the class you want to take to teach you in the downtime. Classes like Cleric, Sorcerer, Warlock, Druid, etc, can all be done by DM intervention and story, working with the player on what and how it happens.
Thoughts?
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Post by Vulash on Feb 2, 2016 16:02:05 GMT
I allow it. In my current game, and many previous games, there simply wasn't enough downtime to add that restriction, and multiclassing is fairly balanced. I've always enjoyed the idea of what you're describing, but in practice but it could be a lot of side time if your characters don't naturally meet someone or have downtime in the game.
Also, I don't like to think of all the classes as discrete classes. I prefer my players to think of them in terms of characters, and the classes just give a mechanic that facilitates that. For example, one of my characters is playing an "agent" working for the Prince. The best class he found to fit his "James Bond of fantasy" idea was a monk following the way of shadows. He isn't part of a monastic order, but the skills facilitate the character he is playing. Another is a scout on the frontier. He started out as a rogue, and has since added in levels as a ranger. But he's not really a "Rogue/Ranger" - he's just what he is, and that happens to be good at surviving in the wilderness and sneaking around scouting.
The only one you've listed that would give me any issue would be the wizard since that should require years of studying and apprenticeship. The others, even fighter and rogue, I think someone that was adventuring could pick up. People in the real world learn to pick locks without being trained other than little things they've picked up here and there. Disciplined fighting does require training, but it's not a big stretch for me to imagine someone in the adventuring life becoming very good with a sword (or bow, etc.). Maybe they don't have perfect form, but they could get the job done.
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Post by DMC on Feb 2, 2016 16:11:06 GMT
Yeah it's definitely more work for the DM, to find ways to make learned classes possible, but I think it just makes the "reality" of the world that much richer. I've never done it personally, but I want to give it a shot.
The problem I see, is that it has the possibility to bring the campaign to a screeching halt, while the party Fighter tries to always find someone to teach him the Rogue class, etc. But I think telegraphing story with a sense of urgency can balance that in a way that doesn't say "No" to the player's ideas.
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Post by Vulash on Feb 2, 2016 16:21:01 GMT
Yeah it's definitely more work for the DM, to find ways to make learned classes possible, but I think it just makes the "reality" of the world that much richer. I've never done it personally, but I want to give it a shot. The problem I see, is that it has the possibility to bring the campaign to a screeching halt, while the party Fighter tries to always find someone to teach him the Rogue class, etc. But I think telegraphing story with a sense of urgency can balance that in a way that doesn't say "No" to the player's ideas. I think you're stating very eloquently why I don't typically do it. I would love to play in a campaign that was bit more gritty and involved this type of role play, but with the limited time we have to play these days we're often eager to get on to the next adventure. Most importantly, however, I think I just don't feel skilled enough to pull it off without either stalling the game, or undermining the importance. |
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Post by lasersniper on Feb 2, 2016 18:40:19 GMT
I haven't had experience with multi-classing since a banned it's use while learning to gm, and since then my players haven't been interested in it. But from what you are describing, it sounds like a lot of problems can be avoided if you require your players to tell you they want to multi-classing for thier next level. That should give you at least some time to talk about what they might have been doing to prepare for a different class, or for them to justify thier experience. And if they want to take some Wizard levels, then that should give you some time to drop in a book of spells, maybe some scrolls to practice with, or have an NPC or PC teaching them on the side. Of course all this hinges on how soon they tell you before a level up, but I think telling your players to tell you could head off some problems you have been describing.
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Post by ino on Feb 2, 2016 19:15:08 GMT
I often enjoy multiclassing, as it can give characters a lot of depth. Sure, there are many archetypal characters that are a single class, such as Aragon as a ranger. But there are a few character concepts that multiclassing helps, such as a bard/barbarian skald or a fighter/rogue navy seal. I think even a more "trained" multiclass can be written in, such as a 2nd level thief who stole a magic book has been reading it in his off time before going to bed. A dm can require feats, like magical aptitude or skills like use magic device, but it depends on the play style you and the players want. Many players from 3.5 often multiclassed, especially if they were after a prestige class. It helps to talk to your players and get an idea of who the characters are and what they aspire to be. If your worried about players "dipping" for min-maxing, multiclass and favored class rules often help guard against that. You can often tell who the min-maxers are by their play style and asking them why. Often too, players don't want to feel too restricted and unable to play what they would like to play.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Feb 3, 2016 1:41:09 GMT
Good points. I have never come across multiclassing, since I have not continued a game long enough to where a player would want to multiclass. Multiclassing would specifically be useful (it seems) in campaigns where the players begin at a higher level. Certainly is interesting to think about.
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Post by ino on Feb 3, 2016 1:55:07 GMT
Or if they know they are going to get levels. In some of my campaigns, I planned from 3 to 30, and everyone planned different level options so they could level quickly during game if necessary. Definitely more for campaigns. Unless it's a minmaxer who multiclassed to get the best he could at lower levels for a one shot.
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Post by ino on Feb 3, 2016 1:57:35 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm actually a bit of a power gamer too, but I do it for story reasons as much as I enjoy it. I've met other people who shamelessly min max for stats and have no actual story drive. I help where I can, but it sometimes drives me crazy. I did it too, but I grew out of it. Karma I guess. Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2016 10:29:12 GMT
The short answer is no, I don't allow multiclassing that isn't supported by the narrative. It doesn't need a lot of support, but it needs something.
I ask my players for some general ideas about how they plan to advance their characters throughout their adventuring career. I would neither want nor expect a detailed level 1-20 outline, and I totally respect a player's decision to change course from their original intent. However, being completely blind about their intentions can cause bigger problems than the weirdness of unexplained new powers.
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Post by catcharlie on Feb 6, 2016 0:24:50 GMT
So is this only for the first level of a Multi-classing class? I'd presume that once you had taken one level in a Class you'd be 'training' in it so there would be no need for any additional narrative every time you level up?
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Post by DMC on Feb 8, 2016 16:00:45 GMT
So is this only for the first level of a Multi-classing class? I'd presume that once you had taken one level in a Class you'd be 'training' in it so there would be no need for any additional narrative every time you level up? Correct. Just for the first foray into the new class. |
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Post by DM Kiado on Feb 8, 2016 16:53:07 GMT
It just needs to fit the scenario, world, or whatever you might be rolling with to justify it. Also there are many things that don't make sense. Going outside of reasonable stats and all that, just for story value alone, I don't see any way for a Barbarian to multi-class into a Wizard. So using that example. In the course of play, there is no way a Barbarian could become a Wizard. Wizardry requires lots of book work, study, and practice and I would equate it to becoming a surgeon in this day an age. Now on the other hand, I could see them taking a Sorcerer class. Through story or discovery or something you could fit that in. It would even be reasonable to me that the Wizard in the party could teach this new born Barbarian Sorcerer how to handle the flow of magic, even if he can't show him how to tap into in the same manner a Wizard would. Now a Fighter, who is constantly fighting through dungeons fully of traps, narrowly escaping danger, could easily pick up some Rogue like traits and become proficient at picking locks, balance and tumbling, and things of that nature. Personally, I wouldn't let any Wizard multi-class in my games just based on the descriptions of the class (that could change with the world), or a Paladin (how can you be so devoted in service, that you decide to focus on other things?). On the other hand, if you are a Fighter travelling with a group, and you and a Cleric speak every night and he teaches your character about his god, and how to call on him to in return for service, I could easily see a Fighter/Cleric. That is just how I think of it for some examples.
It's all situation, setting and world based, to me.
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