dmonic
Commoner
Posts: 16
Favorite D&D Class: Assassin
Favorite D&D Race: Boring Human (... Or Warforged maybe)
|
Post by dmonic on Jan 27, 2016 2:56:56 GMT
Hey, So I've been working on this idea for my Game, and it's that there are forces that people attribute godhood too, and worship, and pray to, and seem to get results from, but these forces are nothing more than the collective belief in an idea or philosophy that's been held for generations.
Like traditional gods, the more believers, the stronger the power of the "God" Thoughtform, also similarly, the longer this "God" has been worshiped, the more powerful.
Unlike traditional gods, these God Thoughtforms lack personal identity or intelligence - They don't have agendas. They're very much mystical forces of nature - If you Honestly and Sincerely pray to the Harvest God during the growing season, you will have a larger harvest.
Some races in my world know the true nature of the Gods and are not bothered by the fact they aren't "real" - They just view it as a mystery or something beyond mortal understanding. Other races do believe the gods are just like us - Personalities, Plans, Chosen people, etc.
--- Later down the road in my game, after the initial campaign, its possible that a group will try to "awaken" the gods, to bestow intelligence and personality upon them, but the consequences of this will be unpredictable and will set the stage for a campaign where the PCs have to deal with the fallout of the Gods becoming sentient.
What comes to mind for you when you hear this? Any problems or conflicts I'd have to be aware of?
|
|
|
Post by lasersniper on Jan 27, 2016 3:34:55 GMT
I think that sounds like a great setup for a world. So basically from what I am understanding, gods in this world are created purely out of belief. So say someone starts a cult somewhere, if they get enough people believing in some random made up deity, then that deity would become an actual "Thoughtform god"?
|
|
dmonic
Commoner
Posts: 16
Favorite D&D Class: Assassin
Favorite D&D Race: Boring Human (... Or Warforged maybe)
|
Post by dmonic on Jan 27, 2016 6:09:09 GMT
Exactly, it's certainly ripe for abuse by clever players, but it does have the caveats of; If you want your prayers to be answered you have to sincerely believe, and it has to be within the wheelhouse of that particular "God". Also, the power of that "God" is relative to the number of worshipers and the amount of time that people have been believing in it.
|
|
|
Post by friartook on Jan 27, 2016 14:48:59 GMT
I've toyed with similar ideas/setups. In the end, unless you create a set of mechanics surrounding this and make it into a mini-game, there is really no difference for the players.
If a divine caster's power comes from their own belief or from an external divine sources can be an important distinction from a worldbuilding perspective. But for the actual inhabitants of this world, there's little to no difference. They pray for healing, a healing spell is cast. Did the power come from an external being, or from an internal faith in the false perception of an external being? Mechanically, how does that matter?
Now, I'm not trying to poo-poo your idea. I actually think its good. I'm just cautioning you that unless you have a mechanic in place that makes this matter to your players, the source of divine magic is essentially flavor text.
The interesting piece of this idea for me is the notion of "awakening" gods. This is a very cool way to build a pantheon. I recommend you run with that idea and come up with some simple in-game mechanics; some "natural laws" regarding this process of faith turning to divine power/divine consciousness.
There is a precedent for this sort of thing in D&D. In many settings, the gods gain power based on the number of faithful followers. Lolth was a Demon Queen or something until the Drow began worshiping her as a Goddess. When she had gained enough followers, she "leveled up" to god status.
When/if you come up with a system for how to implement this, I'd love to read it.
|
|
dmonic
Commoner
Posts: 16
Favorite D&D Class: Assassin
Favorite D&D Race: Boring Human (... Or Warforged maybe)
|
Post by dmonic on Jan 27, 2016 20:45:14 GMT
It's a very good point that it really doesn't matter if gods are real or not to the common person (or even the players to some extent) because whatever gets results gets results, and while I knew that going in, you bringing it up makes me realize I'll have to drop a metric ton of clues about the true nature of the "gods" if I want to use this in game.
If you have any particular ideas how to differentiate God-forms from traditional Gods, I'm all ears, So far what comes to mind for me is that Direct requests/prayers work (e.g. Healing spell, cure disease, smite) indirect appeals or prayers with ambiguous requests don't (e.g. "Please help guide my daughter through the Labyrinth on her quest") - But I don't have any hard and fast ideas yet how to really implement this - it's mostly an RP idea so far.
What excites me most about the "Gods Awakening" story arch is that once you give intelligence and autonomy to a process that used to be a law of magical physics, it's going to start acting in ways that are not as predictable. I also like how it's a reversal of the Adam & Eve story, ... Maybe it's a parable about Artificial Intelligence?
|
|
|
Post by friartook on Jan 27, 2016 20:59:17 GMT
If you have any particular ideas how to differentiate God-forms from traditional Gods, I'm all ears, So far what comes to mind for me is that Direct requests/prayers work (e.g. Healing spell, cure disease, smite) indirect appeals or prayers with ambiguous requests don't (e.g. "Please help guide my daughter through the Labyrinth on her quest") - But I don't have any hard and fast ideas yet how to really implement this - it's mostly an RP idea so far. What excites me most about the "Gods Awakening" story arch is that once you give intelligence and autonomy to a process that used to be a law of magical physics, it's going to start acting in ways that are not as predictable. I also like how it's a reversal of the Adam & Eve story, ... Maybe it's a parable about Artificial Intelligence? "Our thinking in the west largely is that God is the source of the energy. In most Oriental thinking and in most of what we call primitive thinking also, is that God is the manifestation of the energy, not its source. That God is the vehicle of the energy." Joseph Campbell, from The Power of Myth As to your first point, I still don't see any difference. Whether the god is a real extraplanar being or a construct of the mind makes no difference in the scenario you outline except as flavor text. As to your second point, I think you have a choice here: You can make this the worldbuilding behind your pantheon, or you make the large theme of your campaign about this system. In the first instance, this mechanic once again becomes flavor text. However, the second option provides some nice story hook options. The group's Cleric finds a holy text of a God they've never heard of. Likes the teachings. Begins praying to this god. As they level up and their deeds gain renown, he begins to accumulate followers. Initial followers become acolytes, learning from him. He goes off on a quest for a few months, returns to find that some of his followers have built a temple, are performing mass and converting the common folk of the area. Eventually, through whatever mechanic you design, the God reaches a state of consciousness and becomes a powerful being of some kind. Maybe this causes trouble; maybe now your high level characters have to battle this being! Your Cleric rejects this God, but somehow, his spells still work even though he's rejected his God, who he thought provided his power... Just some ideas.
|
|
|
Post by donosaur on Jan 31, 2016 7:54:44 GMT
I'm not sure how this would affect thing game-play wise, but for the sake of world building you could toy with the idea that while these god-concepts start out as monolithic ideas, the people believing in them can fragment and disagree. Thus, over time, the devotees of say, Rain could be splitting into opposing sects, one of which prays to Rain as a bringer of life and waterer of crops, and the other paying homage to the destructive power of storms and floods. The thought-form god of rain would split into these two aspects as defined by its worshippers. Perhaps your players recognize that a sect or cult is about to empower a violent and dangerous thought-god through their worship, and they must stop it. Perhaps the awakening of gods happens while one of these gods is going through a redefinition or split, and it creates an unstable, split personality deity that must be aided by clerics.
|
|
|
Post by ino on Jan 31, 2016 17:33:01 GMT
Thoughtform gods remind me of psionic mantles. U may want to read up on those for inspiration.
To make the world more structured, I would have a set number of "universal" thought forms. Once u have those, there could be derivatives or combinations, but u have ur main sources. This may aid u in the future for mechanics.
Without having a sentience, I imagine these are collective knowledges of people who add to it. It's where inspiration, dreams, or visions can come from.
|
|
|
Post by ino on Jan 31, 2016 17:46:24 GMT
There was a story told on one of my podcasts (I think it was DMB?), about a man who was lost in a desert. A coyote comes to him to eat him. In his fear upon facing death, he imagines the coyote being more than it is in order, almost reasoning why this is about to happen. The coyote must be something more, an embodiment of death or the cruelty of the desert. The coyote then speaks to man, saying that it's the "curse of reasoning" (or something) that gave him intelligence. That the man thought the coyote was something more and this the coyote become more. I think this thought process would help when the thought forms become "awakened".
It would be awesome if you set a number of combinations, then let the players decide on what thought forms are combined with what to create your entire pantheon! I'm sure that would mean a lot to your players.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 1:25:24 GMT
I've toyed with similar ideas/setups. In the end, unless you create a set of mechanics surrounding this and make it into a mini-game, there is really no difference for the players. I began writing a metaphysical treatise for my reimagined homebrew world, and stopped when I arrived at the same conclusion. It ended up being a lot of writing that players might skim over. Still, I found it useful for informing the general opinion of NPCs when it comes to gods. Here's a link: cosmology
It's pretty similar to what dmonic is describing with gods as "thoughtforms," which is why I bring it up. Another reason I stalled on finishing this was in deciding what happened with human souls prior to the Revelation event. Between that and realizing the players weren't really going to use this information, I just kinda shrugged and moved onto developing other parts of the world.
|
|
dmonic
Commoner
Posts: 16
Favorite D&D Class: Assassin
Favorite D&D Race: Boring Human (... Or Warforged maybe)
|
Post by dmonic on Feb 2, 2016 20:38:23 GMT
I read that whole thing Nevvur! Pretty good stuff. I especially liked the very alien thinking of the gods - that they were not aware of the mortals until the mortals did something worth being aware of - that really makes sense to me. I like the idea of the ultimate gods being Creation and Entropy and that they are *not* at war with each other, It seems like every Pantheon revolves around Gods at eternal war with each other, and it's nice to have that shake up (even if in your idea, the lower gods of words do sometimes war with each other).
I particularly like how you describe the Astral Plane and the Third Eye (Drigen), I might have to incorporate some of that into my Astral Plane ideas when I get that far - trying to create a system that lacks conscious gods but has god-like forces creates some interesting problems. I like how you describe souls of dead mortals in the Astral Plane.
Anyway, well done.
---
I've been thinking about whether or not there really needs to be a Game Mechanic difference between Traditional Gods, and God-Like forces, and I keep coming back to No. For me, this is primarily a story-telling idea. and Also a plot device that could really challenge truly faithful characters when they discover the truth. I could see a Game Mechanic like Friartook describes of a PC created idea about god becoming real, but for my own games, the process would have to take decades, if not centuries. It'd be something that would let the PCs influence the future of my world, but it wouldn't necessarily influence the current campaign - And even then, If I ran it, that would only create a God-Like force, not a conscious intelligent God.
|
|
|
Post by dmskreed on Mar 3, 2016 16:38:11 GMT
Sorry if I'm a little late to the party on this one... I just joined the community here.
This is akin to something I've pondered for my own world. The idea of extant interventionist gods having a very active role in the affairs of mortal beings (and caring very much about the outcome of your typical tavern brawl) doesnt work that well for me... and I chafe at the idea that the ven diagram of Good and Evil (Gods, deeds, motivations, whatever) in fantasy games tends to have so little middle ground...
I much prefer the idea that these forces exist in the world, devoid of morality or any kind of order. "Gods" with names and so forth are a concept of the mortal races trying to make sense of something beyond their comprehension... and the Magics used by Paladins and Clerics, are simply tapping into those powers in a very particular way. Wizards are less discerning in their methods and thus have more ways of using those various forces/powers.
That said...
I play/DM D&D, and there are races in the MM (and assumably some individuals or mixed cults) that can, by sheer force of belief, manifest their Gods in material form. The Kuo-Toa, for example. They may be attributing physical characteristics of their own conception to abstract powers they do not understand... but if enough of them believe in their collective creation strongly enough, it will come into being.
That may be something you could consider when it comes to awakening Gods in your world.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2016 19:25:28 GMT
Sorry if I'm a little late to the party on this one... I just joined the community here. This is akin to something I've pondered for my own world. The idea of extant interventionist gods having a very active role in the affairs of mortal beings (and caring very much about the outcome of your typical tavern brawl) doesnt work that well for me... and I chafe at the idea that the ven diagram of Good and Evil (Gods, deeds, motivations, whatever) in fantasy games tends to have so little middle ground... In a paradigm where gods depend on mortal belief to sustain their very existence, interventionism is a logical outcome. Divine or mortal, an intelligent being prefers existence to nonexistence and will generally strive to continue existing. Granted, this observation suffers from anthropomorphic bias. It works fine for my cosmology, since gods are literally the collective beliefs of mortals, and the will to survive is a suitable byproduct of that genesis. That said, it's A logical outcome, not THE logical outcome. There are plenty of reasons for gods not to intervene, but once you establish a link between mortal belief and divinity, I think it requires more contrivance to explain why the gods don't meddle in mortal affairs than to explain why they do. The obvious alternative is to hand wave their detachment as inscrutable or unimportant to the narrative, but this isn't satisfying to me as a world builder.
|
|
|
Post by dmskreed on Mar 3, 2016 20:03:09 GMT
Sorry if I'm a little late to the party on this one... I just joined the community here. This is akin to something I've pondered for my own world. The idea of extant interventionist gods having a very active role in the affairs of mortal beings (and caring very much about the outcome of your typical tavern brawl) doesnt work that well for me... and I chafe at the idea that the ven diagram of Good and Evil (Gods, deeds, motivations, whatever) in fantasy games tends to have so little middle ground... In a paradigm where gods depend on mortal belief to sustain their very existence, interventionism is a logical outcome. Divine or mortal, an intelligent being prefers existence to nonexistence and will generally strive to continue existing. Granted, this observation suffers from anthropomorphic bias. It works fine for my cosmology, since gods are literally the collective beliefs of mortals, and the will to survive is a suitable byproduct of that genesis. That said, it's A logical outcome, not THE logical outcome. There are plenty of reasons for gods not to intervene, but once you establish a link between mortal belief and divinity, I think it requires more contrivance to explain why the gods don't meddle in mortal affairs than to explain why they do. The obvious alternative is to hand wave their detachment as inscrutable or unimportant to the narrative, but this isn't satisfying to me as a world builder. Agree to disagree on your last point. I find having less attachment between gods/godly powers and mortals less satisfying. The A Song of Ice and Fire series looms as a very large and recent influence on my story telling... There is a great deal of Magic attributed to various Gods in that world... but no actual evidence that any of those Gods exist outside of the minds of their followers... and a lot of conflict and drama is generated by mortals (humans, in that world) in their infinite fallibility and tendency toward dogma.
|
|
|
Post by friartook on Mar 7, 2016 17:52:00 GMT
In a paradigm where gods depend on mortal belief to sustain their very existence, interventionism is a logical outcome. Divine or mortal, an intelligent being prefers existence to nonexistence and will generally strive to continue existing. Granted, this observation suffers from anthropomorphic bias. It works fine for my cosmology, since gods are literally the collective beliefs of mortals, and the will to survive is a suitable byproduct of that genesis. That said, it's A logical outcome, not THE logical outcome. There are plenty of reasons for gods not to intervene, but once you establish a link between mortal belief and divinity, I think it requires more contrivance to explain why the gods don't meddle in mortal affairs than to explain why they do. The obvious alternative is to hand wave their detachment as inscrutable or unimportant to the narrative, but this isn't satisfying to me as a world builder. Agree to disagree on your last point. I find having less attachment between gods/godly powers and mortals less satisfying. The A Song of Ice and Fire series looms as a very large and recent influence on my story telling... There is a great deal of Magic attributed to various Gods in that world... but no actual evidence that any of those Gods exist outside of the minds of their followers... and a lot of conflict and drama is generated by mortals (humans, in that world) in their infinite fallibility and tendency toward dogma. I think the dividing line in this debate is the stat block. As soon as you make Gods extraplanar beings of great (but not limitless) power; beings that can be killed by one another or by ridiculously overpowered min/maxed epic level PCs, then you have removed that distant divinity from them. In general, I tend to agree with dmskreed. I don't like having interventionist gods. I prefer my gods to be big and distant; too great for mortal comprehension. However, I also hear @nevvur's point. If gods gain power through worship, then it makes sense they would attempt to intervene and gain more worshipers in the mortal planes. Unless the DM places a barrier of some kind. I was considering building a world with a mechanic in which Arcane magic use loosened the barriers between planes. So, as more Arcane magic was used, more Divine magic and other-worldly influence could reach the mortal realm. However, in a world where there are few or no Arcane magic practitioners, suddenly there are also few or no Divine spell casters and the gods cannot intervene due to the barriers between planes.
|
|