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Post by dm_mainprize on Jan 10, 2016 16:23:19 GMT
So I have been noticing this in my last 3 sessions and need some help. The problem I am having is that my players never seem to know or remember where they are in relation to other things in the room. We play over skype and think this doesnt really help as they dont have maps in front of them. They will enter a room, lets say its 20x20 and I describe the room as a 20x20 chamber with a table in the center and a door across from the one you just entered. The party will step into the room take some actions, do some things and then seem lost as to where in the room they are, where the door was that they came in and the one they didnt. where the table is. etc. I dont know if its my descriptions of the rooms, I try to use left, right, infront and behind, and compass direction N,S,E,W. But they still seem to get lost. Is this something I could fix with adding maps. Or is it something I need to work on with my descriptions adding specific things to use a markers of where they are. I feel like we spend a lot of time each session with me re-describing a room or giving them updates on where they all are once entering. It frustrates me because I feel like I'm not doing enough to give them a mental picture. Well thats my DM problem for now. Thanks so much for any advice or ideas. Keep on dungeon mastering.
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Post by lasersniper on Jan 10, 2016 17:36:51 GMT
I run a game for a group of heavy video gamers and ran into the same problem. Either they would get confused on where they were or get the wrong picture of the room. We play through roll20, so I ended up just quickly sketching out the room and some vague shapes, then use that as a refernce. That green squiggly is the pool of acid, that brown square is the alchemist table, and the squares inlaid to the walls are doors. Stuff like that. They may just be a visual bunch.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jan 10, 2016 21:30:48 GMT
Yeah, maps alone may not get you there, but would certainly help. With Roll20 you can have their markers as relative points they can associate with. It may be that you have a more MUD style description to things at times. Check out ep 126 and 127 of One Shot where they play Traction Park. It's a game where the GM acts as the AI for what would be a MUD. It can give an extreme example of what I'm thinking that may help you out. Another idea would be to let them describe more of what they see in hopes of having better buy in on remembering those things. I suppose the other question would be their familiarity with the digital format and if it's just a learning curve. You can do it no matter the issue I'm sure of it!!
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Samuel Wise
Demigod
Ready to Help...
Posts: 989
Favorite D&D Class: Warlock
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jan 11, 2016 3:59:13 GMT
Throughout my very, very short gaming career, I have never used a map to describe the layout of a room (probably much to my players dismay and it is not like I am proud of it, I probably should) doing everything in theatre of the mind. I usually (as Joat said) revert to text-adventure type description.
However, if my players still are having a hard time visualizing the world around them, I sometimes like to compare it to a place from a movie or from television. I realize this does not work for everything.
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Post by friartook on Jan 11, 2016 4:38:36 GMT
A couple things:
I think this is a chronic problem for some players. I have a few visual players and if they don't have a map in front of them, they are immediately lost. I purposely don't put maps in front of them. When I do, they spend a bunch of time staring at and analyzing the map. Playing Edge of the Empire has helped a lot with this. In EotE the nature of the game make it almost mandatory that the environment not be set in stone. The narrative dice open doors for the addition and subtraction of environmental factors all the time. I encourage you to make your descriptions as concise, simple, and detail free as possible, then add in detail as needed. In order to maintain player trust, they need to be able to do this as well. All involved need to agree that you are not adding in things to gain tactical advantage, more just flavor.
That being said, if you do need to have a map for you group dynamic, Roll20 is probably a good option. I haven't used it, but I know it has map options and integrates with Google Hangouts (not sure about Skype).
Also, remember that you have three powerful magic DM items at your disposal: Pencil, Paper, and a Webcam. If all else fails, sketch up a map and hold it in front of the camera. Let your players "take it in" for a minute, then flash it back up as needed.
Edit: As I reread your OP, I get the impression that you and your players are coming from a background of using a map and minis. If this is true, a lot of this may just be growing pains in making the transition to theater of the mind style gaming. If this is the case, have patience and keep working through it. De-emphasize tactical play and place a focus on player involvement. When a player asks, "Wait, where am I in relationship to the table?" come back with, "I don't know, where are you in relation to the table?" Put the onus of detailed spacial thinking on them. Obviously you have to take more narrative control during combat, but out of combat there's no reason your players can't be doing some of the heavy lifting here.
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Post by whipstache on Jan 19, 2016 23:06:54 GMT
The only thing I've done in my 2 seasons of DMing to alleviate this a bit is to make sure none of my rooms are symmetrical. So, when I describe the room I can give them a landmark. "in the far left (NW) corner of the room is a shiny purple bowl with bananas in it.)" Then when they they lost, we all have a reference point. "You're in the middle of the room, standing on the table. If you are facing the bananas, the door you came through its behind you, while the door you have not yet entered is in front of you and slightly right."
Is a little bit like giving driving directions. Different people need different things. Some people want street names, while others want landmarks. So, I try to do both.
I know I don't have that much experience, but that's my two cents.
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Post by catcharlie on Jan 20, 2016 0:50:13 GMT
It all sounds a bit like Knightmare to me  |
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Post by janewalksfar on Jan 20, 2016 3:13:50 GMT
One of the things I try to keep in mind while DMing is cognition overload. Basically we can divide the mind into working, short term (temporary storage), and long term memory. RPGs are tricky because we're continually moving between the three. So when your players get the description of the room, it's initially active. They take their first round actively working with that information, but in the process, they're taking in more information and also calling on long term memory to recall rules, spells, etc. By the time a couple rounds have passed, the short term memory of the room has most likely been lost because the working memory is taking in all the new information, shuffling new details to short term memory, and the initial description was unlikely to make it to long term memory because of everything else being processed. [Correct me as necessary--drawing on undergraduate recollections of cognitive psychology.]
To balance out the overload, I try to recap combat every few rounds. As combat unfolds, I make a mental note of key moments--the cleric overturns the table to deflect the bandits' arrows, one bandit flees the room shouting for reinforcements, the fighter staggers as a critical hit deals massive damage. Then I narrate that information back to my players to provide a "snap-shot" of the combat scene. That way the cleric knows someone needs healing and the rouge knows the treasure is no longer on the table. IDEALLY, everyone could follow these details in game, but the reality is that it's tricky to do: people talk over each other, you lose track of the action while recording damage. The mind gets overwhelmed. I figure since I'll end up having the repeat things anyway when players ask questions, I might as well turn the repetition into narration and use it to propel the combat forward rather than stopping to sort our confusion.
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DMFunkopotamus
Commoner
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Favorite D&D Class: Sorcerer with nuclear bloodline
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Post by DMFunkopotamus on Jan 21, 2016 0:37:44 GMT
While we were playing 3.5/Pathfinder, I started noticing that the players focused more and more on the map and less and less on the interaction. The more things moved in that direction, the slower the game got. Players tuned out completely when it wasn't their turn in the initiative order, and so when their time did come around, they'd start by staring at the map for about a minute to see what was happening. When I finally realized that the map had transformed the game from an RPG to a miniatures wargame with seven players, I got rid of it. The transition back to actual role playing was almost as slow as the transition away from it though. There was a LOT of, "Where am I?" and "I have no idea what's going on". And the reason was two-sided: they weren't used to mentally keeping track of it, and I wasn't used to describing it in a way that helped create the right mental image. I described it in a way that made sense to me, but I made the scenario, so I already know exactly where everything was.
If you're going through something similar (i.e., a group accustomed to playing with a map learning to play without one), the best tip I'd give is ask the players for feedback. Do they prefer directions in left/right or north/south? Do they prefer actual measurements or general estimates? And are you and/or the players okay with certain things (e.g., furniture, passers by, etc.) just being assumed (even if not everyone's making the same assumption), or does everything need to be spelled out? After a while, hopefully, you'll all adjust to each others preferences. And if not, Roll20 is fantastic when a map that everyone can look at is really needed.
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Post by dm_mainprize on Jan 21, 2016 2:04:19 GMT
These are all great responses. Thank you all so much for helping out the noobiest noob. My players will be very grateful!
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Samuel Wise
Demigod
Ready to Help...
Posts: 989
Favorite D&D Class: Warlock
Favorite D&D Race: Mousefolk
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jan 21, 2016 2:56:58 GMT
These are all great responses. Thank you all so much for helping out the noobiest noob. My players will be very grateful! I am very sure, I am much more the noob.  Hope your players can find their way (literally). |
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Jan 21, 2016 17:30:51 GMT
Something I've worked on in the past is trying to avoid relative terms for bearing. Terms like "left" and "right" are relative to the viewer's orientation and so they can be a bit confusing if everyone isn't mentally pointed the same way. Compass directions are more practical (at least in my experience), especially if you consistently keep North at the same end.
This isn't as much of a challenge for my group since we meet in meatspace and have a giant battlemat we can play on. We have a simple house rule that North is towards the GM to make it easy for the players. I then just have to fight my own bias to lay every dungeon out on the conventional north/west track.
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Hope your players can find their way (literally).