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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 20:08:57 GMT
This one came up awhile ago on the WotC forums, just curious how you guys would rule on it. Read the text for Magic Missile and Mirror Image, and tell me how you think they interact.
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 13, 2015 20:27:40 GMT
If it were me, I would have each Magic Missile resolve against the Mirror Image separately. Each could go to the target or a duplicate. The other idea I would be open to is that all three are resolved against a single version, and it would either all hit the target or all hit the duplicate. Also, when I first read this I only read "Magic Missile v Mirror" and thought "good lord, using a mirror to cast them around corners!? What an interesting proposition, haha."
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Post by DMC on Apr 13, 2015 20:49:47 GMT
Magic Missile 1st-level evocation Casting Time: 1 action Range: 120 feet Components: V, S Duration: Instantaneous
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature o f your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
Mirror Image 2nd-level illusion Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self Components: V, S Duration: 1 minute
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates. Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates. If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack’s target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher. A duplicate’s AC equals 10+your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed. A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.
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Post by DMC on Apr 13, 2015 20:58:00 GMT
I assume you're talking about the words "targeted" and "attack"?
I'd rule that since you don't "roll to attack" with Magic Missile, the Mirror Image would ignore the Missile. MI specifically says it ignores all other damage and effects except those that actually hit it. In order to "hit" something with an attack, in this spell's terms anyways since it gives the duplicate's AC, you have to get to or bypass it's AC, which means an attack roll.
So Magic Missiles wouldn't do anything, but a Fireball, which produces an AoE still would burn the Wizard that cast the MI. His duplicates just wouldn't take any damage and still be there, assuming the Wizard that cast MI, survived the blast.
That's how I'd rule.
What's up to DM discretion is if the duplicates change appearance along with the caster, or if they are static once created. Would that Wizard that survived a Fireball along with his duplicates, be smouldering and steaming, while the duplicates are not? On that one, the spell description is 100% inconclusive.
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 13, 2015 22:05:42 GMT
Your ruling means that Mirror Image would make a creature completely immune to all Magic Missiles? That is beast mode.
I saw it as Creature A casting Magic Missile at Creature B (who has Mirror Image on them.) Creature B rolls a d20 to see if the Magic Missile is going to hit Creature B or a duplicate of Creature B. If the roll indicates that it hits a duplicate the Magic Missile is resolved, and automatically hits as it would regardless of the AC of a creature.
Also, I would have thought that the mirror image would mimic everything that happens to the original. However it is a very interesting concept to think that the duplicates only retain the image when cast and from that point on mimic the movements.
It makes for a very interesting dichotomy between the effectiveness of targeted v area of effect.
Nevvur was there any resolution to the topic on the WotC forums? I assume that it was a very cordial conversation, and everyone came to a mutual agreement on the topic, haha.
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Post by DMC on Apr 13, 2015 23:08:31 GMT
Your ruling means that Mirror Image would make a creature completely immune to all Magic Missiles? That is beast mode. I saw it as Creature A casting Magic Missile at Creature B (who has Mirror Image on them.) Creature B rolls a d20 to see if the Magic Missile is going to hit Creature B or a duplicate of Creature B. If the roll indicates that it hits a duplicate the Magic Missile is resolved, and automatically hits as it would regardless of the AC of a creature. Also, I would have thought that the mirror image would mimic everything that happens to the original. However it is a very interesting concept to think that the duplicates only retain the image when cast and from that point on mimic the movements. It makes for a very interesting dichotomy between the effectiveness of targeted v area of effect. Nevvur was there any resolution to the topic on the WotC forums? I assume that it was a very cordial conversation, and everyone came to a mutual agreement on the topic, haha. I'm not sure how it can be ruled any other way. Magic Missile never uses an attack roll of the dice. It always just goes off and hits for damage, disregarding any AC values. Since the spell specifically calls for an attack against AC, and also says it ignores "all other damage and effects", it stands to reason in my book that that is the case. Am I missing or misinterpreting something?
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 13, 2015 23:55:07 GMT
I think that is where our interpretations might be differing, as to where in Mirror Image it specifically calls for an attack against AC. The AC seems to me as a necessary piece of info when a creature rolls a d20 and successfully change's an attacks target to a duplicate. Once it is determined that the attack is against a duplicate and not the original Creature then it is resolved with the AC provided (which is essentially the touch AC of the Creature.) I think the other differentiation is whether or not Magic Missile is an attack. If it is not then I would agree that it would mostly fall into the "all other damage and effects," but I feel like that could encompass a wide array of things. Also, for clarification for me on your thoughts, are you saying that Magic Missile wouldn't hit at all if a Creature has Mirror Image on itself. Or would it instead just hit the intended Creature? Or (the one I believe you are implying) if Magic Missile is determined to hit a duplicate, after the d20 roll, it would not do any damage and not remove a duplicate? If it is the third then we are more closely aligned than I originally thought, haha. Side note: I am really enjoying this conversation and hope that you are too!
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Post by DMC on Apr 14, 2015 16:33:32 GMT
Also, for clarification for me on your thoughts, are you saying that Magic Missile wouldn't hit at all if a Creature has Mirror Image on itself. Or would it instead just hit the intended Creature? Or (the one I believe you are implying) if Magic Missile is determined to hit a duplicate, after the d20 roll, it would not do any damage and not remove a duplicate? If it is the third then we are more closely aligned than I originally thought, haha. Side note: I am really enjoying this conversation and hope that you are too! Yes, the third is what I'm saying. A Magic Missile doesn't use an attack roll, so therefore there's no way to determine if it hits something's AC or not. It therefore would fall into the "ignores all other damage and effects" portion of the MI description. EXAMPLE #1:Sorcerer with 3 Mirror Images up and running. Images have AC12 (10+DEX2) vs. Wizard • Wizard casts Magic Missile. • Sorcerer rolls 1d20 to change target from himself, to a duplicate. Need 6 or higher with three duplicates. Result: 7. One of the Mirror Image duplicates is now a target instead of the Sorcerer. • Magic Missile streaks in, and since there is no attack roll to go against the duplicate's AC12, the "ignore all other damage and effects" portion kicks in. Magic Missile does nothing against the duplicate, therefore the three duplicates still remain. EXAMPLE #2:
Sorcerer with 3 Mirror Images up and running. Images have AC12 (10+DEX2) vs. Wizard • Wizard casts Magic Missile. • Sorcerer rolls 1d20 to change target from himself, to a duplicate. Need 6 or higher with three duplicates. Result: 4. Sorcerer is still the target. • Magic Missile streaks in and hits the Sorcerer for 1d4+1 damage. Sorcerer makes his Concentration roll to keep the Mirror Image spell going. Three duplicates still remain.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 20:25:47 GMT
The thread was never resolved, at least not to my satisfaction (hence me bringing it up again). Someone said they would ask Mike Mearls/Jeremy Crawford on Twitter, but I don't think we ever got an answer/update.
FWIW, I believe that a literal and strict interpretation of the spell descriptions yields no interaction between MM and MI. No attack roll, so MM hits the non-illusion. It's worth noting that in previous editions with less vague language, most people ruled that MI does not block MM. I still encountered some disagreement in how people thought they interacted, but the camps weren't so evenly split as the 5e debate on these two spells. Granted, the mechanics of previous editions have no bearing on others, but they provide insight into the intent of the spells.
The bigger problem in my mind comes up when the MM caster wants to hit the illusions (for example, so the barbarian can attack the MI caster with more certainty on his turn).
Finally, I don't care what my own RAW interpretation says about how these spells interact. I rule that each magic missile still has a chance of impacting an illusion or the caster, depending on the number of duplicates and how many targets the missiles are deployed against.
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Post by friartook on Apr 14, 2015 20:40:47 GMT
I saw it as Creature A casting Magic Missile at Creature B (who has Mirror Image on them.) Creature B rolls a d20 to see if the Magic Missile is going to hit Creature B or a duplicate of Creature B. If the roll indicates that it hits a duplicate the Magic Missile is resolved, and automatically hits as it would regardless of the AC of a creature. I agree with this call. Ignore the attack roll on the part of the MM caster. Just use the random mechanic of MI to see which version the missiles hit. There is an exploit here: Say Creature A casting MM can cast it at a level where there are enough missiles to match the duplicates. For example: say Creature B casts MI on themselves and creates three mirror images (for a total of 4 versions of themselves). If Creature B is high enough level to cast MM with 4 missiles, each can be sent to one target. So, one missile per image and one for the real Creature B. Since MM is an auto-hit, all mirror images would be destroyed and Creature B would take damage from one missile. I would allow this exploit if a PC thought of it. Otherwise, I would resolve using the random mechanic from MI spell description. If Creature A splits things up oddly (say, 2 missiles for one image and 2 for another), I'd roll twice using the random MI mechanic to see which version the missiles hit.
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 14, 2015 21:00:38 GMT
I would lean away from allowing that exploit only because Mirror Image says "shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real." Essentially there would be no way to really select amongst the Creature or its duplicates. The discussion really boils down to whether or not you interpret Magic Missile as an attack or not. If you believe that it is not an attack then I would think it doesn't care about Mirror Image at all and would just hit the Creature in the same way that Fireball would rather than be able to be negated by hitting a duplicate.
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Post by friartook on Apr 14, 2015 21:08:44 GMT
I think of MM as a heat seeking missile, where the "heat" is the casters chosen target(s). It is an attack, but there is no chance of it missing...unless the target is not actually where you think it is.
I'd consider allowing the exploit just because I like rewarding creative/out of the box thinking in my players, but your point is well taken.
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Post by umbralwalker on Apr 24, 2015 22:41:39 GMT
This is a fascinating discussion. At first blush, I would roll to see which image the MM hits then take out the image with the MM. I think the interpretation of the rule is "too strict"(?) if that's possible.
However, after reading all of your feedback, I'm not so sure anymore. Taking it a step sideways, if you cast MM at, say, a displacer beast, does it hit the beast? In the olden days there was a miss chance, so maybe? But now it's disadvantage on the attack (I believe), meaning, yes, the MM "heat seeks" and hits the DB. So, in that case, I might rule that they all hit the main target. However, since MM requires the caster to choose a target and there are 4 potential targets to focus on, I'm back to not being sure.
If you rule that MM automatically hits and takes out an image, then MM is a MI breaker. If you rule that the images don't take any damage and aren't dispelled then MI is a MM breaker.
Fascinating.
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Jourfrend
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Post by Jourfrend on Jun 25, 2015 6:55:11 GMT
Here is my understanding/ruling of Magic Missile versus Mirror Image.
Ashton the Mage versus Eldran the Sorcerer Round 1: Each opponent has Mirror Images (3 each) and will be using Magic Missile spells. (6 or higher needed to interpose) Eldran wins the initiative roll and fires off three glowing darts of draconic force. Ashton manipulates his images (rolling 17, 4, 10) sacrificing two of his images and suffering 1d4+1.
Ashton recites a very complex string of arcane formulae and three skulls of magic energy scream their way towards his foe. Eldran manipulates his images in an effort to avoid damage (rolling 1, 5, 13), grunting in pain as he suffers 2d4+2 in damage and watches as one of his images is destroyed.
Round 2: Ashton has one image left. (11 or higher needed). Eldran has two images left. (8 or higher needed)
Eldran sees his opponent only has one image left and lets loose another trio of darts at Ashton. Ashton (rolls 4, 8, 10) tries unsuccessfully to interpose his remaining image suffering 3d4+3 in damage.
Ashton again recites his formulae and sends three more skulls flying through the air. Eldran (rolls 20 and a 12) watching as his last two images fade away and he is struck for 1d4+1 in damage.
Round 3: Ashton has one image left. (11 or higher need). Eldran has no images left.
Eldran flings three more magical darts at his opponent. Ashton (rolls 3, 9, 16) taking 2d4+2 in damage before interposing his final image.
Ashton, with only a couple of hit points left Ashton sends three more eldritch skulls towards Eldran, each striking unerringly. Eldran suffers 3d4+3 in damage and collapses.
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Post by hawk on Jul 6, 2015 2:27:16 GMT
I think jf hit it with a great depiction demonstrating the spirit / essence of the spell (MI). The caster is attempting to manipulate the images and self preserve. It's fun for the caster and "agressor"... good stuff!
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