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Post by DM Kiado on Jul 23, 2015 19:06:16 GMT
Also, for clarification for me on your thoughts, are you saying that Magic Missile wouldn't hit at all if a Creature has Mirror Image on itself. Or would it instead just hit the intended Creature? Or (the one I believe you are implying) if Magic Missile is determined to hit a duplicate, after the d20 roll, it would not do any damage and not remove a duplicate? If it is the third then we are more closely aligned than I originally thought, haha. Side note: I am really enjoying this conversation and hope that you are too! Yes, the third is what I'm saying. A Magic Missile doesn't use an attack roll, so therefore there's no way to determine if it hits something's AC or not. It therefore would fall into the "ignores all other damage and effects" portion of the MI description. EXAMPLE #1:Sorcerer with 3 Mirror Images up and running. Images have AC12 (10+DEX2) vs. Wizard • Wizard casts Magic Missile. • Sorcerer rolls 1d20 to change target from himself, to a duplicate. Need 6 or higher with three duplicates. Result: 7. One of the Mirror Image duplicates is now a target instead of the Sorcerer. • Magic Missile streaks in, and since there is no attack roll to go against the duplicate's AC12, the "ignore all other damage and effects" portion kicks in. Magic Missile does nothing against the duplicate, therefore the three duplicates still remain. EXAMPLE #2:
Sorcerer with 3 Mirror Images up and running. Images have AC12 (10+DEX2) vs. Wizard • Wizard casts Magic Missile. • Sorcerer rolls 1d20 to change target from himself, to a duplicate. Need 6 or higher with three duplicates. Result: 4. Sorcerer is still the target. • Magic Missile streaks in and hits the Sorcerer for 1d4+1 damage. Sorcerer makes his Concentration roll to keep the Mirror Image spell going. Three duplicates still remain. I think I would handle it this way too.
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Post by Varis on Jul 25, 2015 16:41:05 GMT
You guys seem to be missing a very important part of the spell description, "Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space."
Creature Size Each creature takes up a different amount of space. The Size Categories table shows how much space a creature of a particular size controls in combat. Objects sometimes use the same size categories.
Size Space Tiny 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 ft Small 5 by 5 ft. Medium 5 by 5 ft. Large 10 by 10 ft. Huge 15 by 15 ft. Gargantuan 20 by 20 ft. or larger
Space A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them.
The general idea here seems to be that you cannot "target" a duplicate, but instead, you can target the MI caster, and the MI caster can then change the attack from himself to a duplicate that exists in his space. This change seems to be due to a "shifting position" within the casters space. Therefor, you really have no choice but to send all MM attacks to what you perceive to be a single target within the MI caster's space. This would either require one d20 roll to shift the MM attack (all missiles) to a duplicate, or 3d20 rolls to shift each missile individually to a duplicate (lv 1 MM). Since the MM spell states that the missiles hit their target "simultaneously", I interpret that to be a single d20 roll to shift to a single duplicate.
Determining whether or not MM is actually an attack is another issue entirely. Does the MM dissipate against the duplicate or does it destroy the duplicate? That seems to be DM discretion to me, because the literal wording is confusing, even though the intent was probably to have MM become an attack that has an automatic hit which just ignores AC.
In conclusion, I read this scenario to to be a single d20 roll, and an auto hit to destroy one duplicate on a successful roll. Rinse and repeat for each round that the MI caster has a duplicate available.
Cheers.
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Post by Varis on Jul 25, 2015 16:57:03 GMT
As an addendum to my earlier post, the MI spell does not require concentration, so the there should not be a concentration check if the caster takes damage on a failed d20 roll. All images should still be there for the duration of the spell, unless they are destroyed by attacks.
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therealvaris
Commoner
Posts: 9
Favorite D&D Class: Wizard
Favorite D&D Race: Half-Orc
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Post by therealvaris on Jul 25, 2015 19:34:25 GMT
You guys seem to be missing a very important part of the spell description, "Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space."
Creature Size Each creature takes up a different amount of space. The Size Categories table shows how much space a creature of a particular size controls in combat. Objects sometimes use the same size categories.
Size Space Tiny 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 ft Small 5 by 5 ft. Medium 5 by 5 ft. Large 10 by 10 ft. Huge 15 by 15 ft. Gargantuan 20 by 20 ft. or larger
Space A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them.
The general idea here seems to be that you cannot "target" a duplicate, but instead, you can target the MI caster, and the MI caster can then change the attack from himself to a duplicate that exists in his space. This change seems to be due to a "shifting position" within the casters space. Therefor, you really have no choice but to send all MM attacks to what you perceive to be a single target within the MI caster's space. This would either require one d20 roll to shift the MM attack (all missiles) to a duplicate, or 3d20 rolls to shift each missile individually to a duplicate (lv 1 MM). Since the MM spell states that the missiles hit their target "simultaneously", I interpret that to be a single d20 roll to shift to a single duplicate. Determining whether or not MM is actually an attack is another issue entirely. Does the MM dissipate against the duplicate or does it destroy the duplicate? That seems to be DM discretion to me, because the literal wording is confusing, even though the intent was probably to have MM become an attack that has an automatic hit which just ignores AC. In conclusion, I read this scenario to to be a single d20 roll, and an auto hit to destroy one duplicate on a successful roll. Rinse and repeat for each round that the MI caster has a duplicate available. Cheers. I just made an account so all of you can know who I am! I'm this guy ^. I'm a new player that would like to start doing some DM'ing, so thanks in advance for any tips. Cheers.
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Post by DMC on Jul 30, 2015 15:14:22 GMT
Funny thing is........the "Guest" avatar actually looks like Varys from GoT. HAHAHA!!! Welcome aboard!
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Post by joatmoniac on Jul 31, 2015 1:00:07 GMT
Agreed, welcome to the Block Party! Glad you have joined the rest of us Blockheads on the forums.
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Post by Azurdan on Nov 19, 2015 17:54:13 GMT
That is a nice story Yourfrend, but sometimes the rules interpose with realism. As magic missile is a spell that does not require an attack roll it will ignore mirror image. At least, that seems to be the call that makes most sense and is closest to the rules and descriptions.
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Post by Schorn on Nov 23, 2015 23:16:43 GMT
Yes, the third is what I'm saying. A Magic Missile doesn't use an attack roll, so therefore there's no way to determine if it hits something's AC or not. It therefore would fall into the "ignores all other damage and effects" portion of the MI description. There is a contradiction in this interpretation. If magic missile is not an attack and therefore cannot destroy a duplicate, then magic missile cannot be redirected to a duplicate. As Mirror Image states: Therefore magic missile and mirror image have zero interaction and all missiles hit the intended target.
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