dmcabbage
Commoner
Posts: 7 
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Goliath
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Post by dmcabbage on Oct 13, 2016 16:05:56 GMT
Hi everyone,
I'm a pretty new DM and just switched over to 5E six months ago. I run a homebrew campaign. While preparing for a session during one of my breaks, an acquaintance noticed and showed interest. After talking a bit about it he said he'd like to join. After a discussion with my group we agreed.
He's a former gamer: xbox I think. Anyways, it quickly became apparent to me that he is used to being the infallible hero and the center to the story. As such, he is not accustomed to any suggestion of failure, and recently shut down combat when faced with the decision of letting the bad guy go to potentially save two friends or kill the bad guy while killing two unconscious party members. The following session, as a way of getting him untethered from a small town he told me he wanted a reason to leave, he once again shut the game down while he argued against what the NPCs in the world were doing.
I've spoken to him twice about it, and gently let him know that this is what RPGs are like. I haven't mentioned his issues with the game result in the others not getting as much fun out of it, not to mention me. This may happen very soon. I also advised he listen to Finding Fun in Failure from the DMs Block as a primer for him to learn the difference between these games and what he's used to. I know I'm not a perfect DM and have much to learn about handling players and difficult scenarios, and letting the players build the world as well, and I'm working on that.
I'm looking for ways to plan for this player to have his time to shine, while not forfeiting too much time for the rest of the players who are being very genial while the new players' growing pains are out of the way.
Any suggestions on how to further deal with this? I'm also not having much fun when I have to defend an NPCs decisions for an hour instead of seeing the group explore the world.
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dmtreat
Squire
Posts: 48
Favorite D&D Class: Ranger
Favorite D&D Race: Dwarf
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Post by dmtreat on Oct 13, 2016 19:55:39 GMT
Hey man, glad to see a new DM. Always good to have people join.
I have a player a lot like this but he's been playing with us for a long time now and we have all been able to come to compromises on most of his quirks. One question i have involves ability checks. Do you have players roll for every single ability check? What I mean is some people who like to shine will get a lot of satisfaction from shining in small ways added up.
ex. My trouble player was a Wood Elf with a high Dexterity. He wanted to be able to jump into trees and between them. Instead of having him constantly do an ability check I would jsut say he does it because he was skilled enough as an elven ranger.
With the arguing with NPCs I dont think I understand the situation. What is he arguing with them about? Is it Lore? Motivation? Attitude?
This information would help as finding what he's specifically arguing against could solve a lot.
If he slows down the party, start a rotation. If he wants to argue, have him argue on his turn.
ex. Hes arguing that a rule doesnt apply to him. Give him your statement, let him respond, move on to the next person in rotation so they can play the game. Then the next. So on until you get back to him.
Also in battle with these kind of players I usually find that throwing lots of really easy kills at them will give them a lot of satisfaction.
If he has trouble with failing, I dont know how you handle failure but if you have bad things happen on Crit 1s then what I would do is sit down with the group and come up with a crit fail chart EVERYONE can agree on. That way when he fails he is aware of the consequences and it is as fair as possible.
These are just a couple suggestions, im sure more people will have a ton to say.
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dmcabbage
Commoner
Posts: 7
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Goliath
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Post by dmcabbage on Oct 13, 2016 21:11:50 GMT
Hey man, glad to see a new DM. Always good to have people join. I have a player a lot like this but he's been playing with us for a long time now and we have all been able to come to compromises on most of his quirks. One question i have involves ability checks. Do you have players roll for every single ability check? What I mean is some people who like to shine will get a lot of satisfaction from shining in small ways added up. ex. My trouble player was a Wood Elf with a high Dexterity. He wanted to be able to jump into trees and between them. Instead of having him constantly do an ability check I would jsut say he does it because he was skilled enough as an elven ranger. With the arguing with NPCs I dont think I understand the situation. What is he arguing with them about? Is it Lore? Motivation? Attitude? This information would help as finding what he's specifically arguing against could solve a lot. If he slows down the party, start a rotation. If he wants to argue, have him argue on his turn. ex. Hes arguing that a rule doesnt apply to him. Give him your statement, let him respond, move on to the next person in rotation so they can play the game. Then the next. So on until you get back to him. Also in battle with these kind of players I usually find that throwing lots of really easy kills at them will give them a lot of satisfaction. If he has trouble with failing, I dont know how you handle failure but if you have bad things happen on Crit 1s then what I would do is sit down with the group and come up with a crit fail chart EVERYONE can agree on. That way when he fails he is aware of the consequences and it is as fair as possible. These are just a couple suggestions, im sure more people will have a ton to say. Those are all great suggestions. I have already implemented some of those since the first issues began. The NPC issue is that he's not arguing with NPCs in character, but frequently steps out of character to argue with me player to DM on the way an NPC is behaving or reacting/responding to what the group has been doing. I constantly ask him the get-back-into-character questions like "Is that what your character thinks? Your character has an intelligence of 8, would your character's rebuttal include this information which he is not privy to?" You know, things like that. That suggestion to have more auto successes happen with his character I think will work swimmingly with him. I've been starting to make a failure chart, and was going to present it to the group as it neared completion. |
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dmtreat
Squire
Posts: 48
Favorite D&D Class: Ranger
Favorite D&D Race: Dwarf
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Post by dmtreat on Oct 13, 2016 23:15:38 GMT
OK so it's kind of a meta gaming problem. That's kind of a harder one to get a hold on until the player just plainly has more experience with the game itself and sees the value in RPing information.
One thing I like to do at the beginnings of my games to help players stay in character is go around the table in my "DM voice" and address each player by their character name while handing them each a placard with that name on it to set in front of them. Also encourage your other players to refer to each other by character name.
One thing I've found to be the cause of all of this is class/race. My wife was frustrated with every character she played until she found a combination she liked.
Hope some of this is helping. Not trying to be preachy lol.
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Post by lasersniper on Oct 13, 2016 23:30:19 GMT
Hey man, glad to see a new DM. Always good to have people join. I have a player a lot like this but he's been playing with us for a long time now and we have all been able to come to compromises on most of his quirks. One question i have involves ability checks. Do you have players roll for every single ability check? What I mean is some people who like to shine will get a lot of satisfaction from shining in small ways added up. ex. My trouble player was a Wood Elf with a high Dexterity. He wanted to be able to jump into trees and between them. Instead of having him constantly do an ability check I would jsut say he does it because he was skilled enough as an elven ranger. With the arguing with NPCs I dont think I understand the situation. What is he arguing with them about? Is it Lore? Motivation? Attitude? This information would help as finding what he's specifically arguing against could solve a lot. If he slows down the party, start a rotation. If he wants to argue, have him argue on his turn. ex. Hes arguing that a rule doesnt apply to him. Give him your statement, let him respond, move on to the next person in rotation so they can play the game. Then the next. So on until you get back to him. Also in battle with these kind of players I usually find that throwing lots of really easy kills at them will give them a lot of satisfaction. If he has trouble with failing, I dont know how you handle failure but if you have bad things happen on Crit 1s then what I would do is sit down with the group and come up with a crit fail chart EVERYONE can agree on. That way when he fails he is aware of the consequences and it is as fair as possible. These are just a couple suggestions, im sure more people will have a ton to say. Those are all great suggestions. I have already implemented some of those since the first issues began. The NPC issue is that he's not arguing with NPCs in character, but frequently steps out of character to argue with me player to DM on the way an NPC is behaving or reacting/responding to what the group has been doing. I constantly ask him the get-back-into-character questions like "Is that what your character thinks? Your character has an intelligence of 8, would your character's rebuttal include this information which he is not privy to?" You know, things like that. That suggestion to have more auto successes happen with his character I think will work swimmingly with him. I've been starting to make a failure chart, and was going to present it to the group as it neared completion. I had a player who did that, argue about how characters reacted and acted Player to DM. It came to me sitting him down and just telling him "I know the backstories of these characters, their past and present. What they are dealing with and what their concerns are. You do not. Just because someone acts irrationally from your point of view, but from theirs, it makes perfect sense and is natural. This is 75% of my job as a gamemaster, and you need to trust my decisions behind their actions". Now in context, this had been going on for a little while and had slowed the games down significantly. So in this quote I was a kinda firm. But the meaning behind it is one that should be convinced. You are the conduit to this world for your players. YOU WILL know what makes sense when it comes to NPC reactions. Your players WILL NOT. |
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Post by Sidera on Oct 13, 2016 23:46:44 GMT
Wow so many suggestions on here! I'm going to have to hijack some myself. I'm also having a player issue which seems to improve and then go backwards. My boyfriend is very new to D&D and in our first ever session I DM'd he ended up creating a situation where there was going to be a group TPK due to reckless action and seeing himself as the infallible hero. I was seen as 'harsh DM' for enforcing the consequences of his actions. We ended up restarting the campaign with new characters and explaining to him that some enemies are stronger than you and can't be beaten straight away and there will be consequences to any actions you make. The restart went a lot smoother, he still got mad when he had consequences put upon him but he acted up less so they were a lot less severe than everyone gets stuck in a fight to the death. So I very much found explaining the parameters of the game helped there. If they know some enemies can't be beaten then they can't really get mad when that happens. The main issue I'm having at the moment is he's playing a very support based wizard and hasn't found much use for his skills yet. So when he feels like he isn't contributing (aka the other player and 'leader' of sorts is discussing stuff with the group or negotiating things with the enemy) he starts playing up basically trying to get a fight going or cause discomfort and drama in the group. He also likes to read any notes I give him out loud to the group about dreams he's had etc. Which doesn't make sense role play wise. He also when given instructions by the 'leader' then always passes the messages on incorrectly for some reason. I dunno if he just doesn't think or doesn't listen. But I thought maybe you guys could shed some light on this too as we are going over player problems here  |
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Post by DM_tonofbricks on Oct 13, 2016 23:48:42 GMT
I had a player who did that, argue about how characters reacted and acted Player to DM. It came to me sitting him down and just telling him "I know the backstories of these characters, their past and present. What they are dealing with and what their concerns are. You do not. Just because someone acts irrationally from your point of view, but from theirs, it makes perfect sense and is natural. This is 75% of my job as a gamemaster, and you need to trust my decisions behind their actions". Now in context, this had been going on for a little while and had slowed the games down significantly. So in this quote I was a kinda firm. But the meaning behind it is one that should be convinced. You are the conduit to this world for your players. YOU WILL know what makes sense when it comes to NPC reactions. Your players WILL NOT. Building off of that, I think it is important to address one concern at at time. If you come to this player with a litany of issues, they may feel attacked and therefore get defensive. They may feel as if they are playing the game right, and you are the one screwing up. Trying to help a new player find their style is hard stuff. Trying to help a new player understand how an RPG works AND trying to teach them not to meta game is basically impossible. Metagaming is that constant cloud over our head that everyone knows is there. My advice, stick with the simple stuff now. If he questions how an NPC acts, tell him exactly why. Give him the dirty details of the backstory (as long as they don't ruin the mystery). He will begin to see the depth of the game and the story you are weaving. Sure, he will know some meta stuff he isn't supposed to, but he can learn to ignore that kind of stuff on his own. For now, he needs the understanding of WHY things are working the way they work. Also, I totally agree with the easy kills. Bend the rules a bit for him at first. Let him get the killing blow on a big bad monster. Maybe make one of the BBEG's lieutenants especially connected to the PC, so he has motivation to want him daed. |
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dmcabbage
Commoner
Posts: 7
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Goliath
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Post by dmcabbage on Oct 14, 2016 0:05:39 GMT
These are all great ideas, and have given me more insight into how to solve the problems facing. tonofbricks, you're right that trying to solve everything at once is a tightrope between putting him on the defensive and closing him off to any individuality in the way he plays. I have much to consider. Another player DMs another game we play and had some good advice too.
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dmtreat
Squire
Posts: 48
Favorite D&D Class: Ranger
Favorite D&D Race: Dwarf
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Post by dmtreat on Oct 14, 2016 0:06:43 GMT
If he questions how an NPC acts, tell him exactly why. Give him the dirty details of the backstory (as long as they don't ruin the mystery). He will begin to see the depth of the game and the story you are weaving. Sure, he will know some meta stuff he isn't supposed to, but he can learn to ignore that kind of stuff on his own. For now, he needs the understanding of WHY things are working the way they work. I agree with this whole heartedly. Not only is this showing your player that there is a lot more to an NPC than just heres a person who mite have a quest or info, it will instill knowledge within your player about your world and lore and how much work you put in. This is also duel purpose because if you start giving your player information that their character is not supposed to have, then you are suddenly teaching them how NOT to meta-game in the most organic way possible. |
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dmcabbage
Commoner
Posts: 7
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Goliath
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Post by dmcabbage on Oct 14, 2016 0:07:26 GMT
Wow so many suggestions on here! I'm going to have to hijack some myself. I'm also having a player issue which seems to improve and then go backwards. My boyfriend is very new to D&D and in our first ever session I DM'd he ended up creating a situation where there was going to be a group TPK due to reckless action and seeing himself as the infallible hero. I was seen as 'harsh DM' for enforcing the consequences of his actions. We ended up restarting the campaign with new characters and explaining to him that some enemies are stronger than you and can't be beaten straight away and there will be consequences to any actions you make. The restart went a lot smoother, he still got mad when he had consequences put upon him but he acted up less so they were a lot less severe than everyone gets stuck in a fight to the death. So I very much found explaining the parameters of the game helped there. If they know some enemies can't be beaten then they can't really get mad when that happens. The main issue I'm having at the moment is he's playing a very support based wizard and hasn't found much use for his skills yet. So when he feels like he isn't contributing (aka the other player and 'leader' of sorts is discussing stuff with the group or negotiating things with the enemy) he starts playing up basically trying to get a fight going or cause discomfort and drama in the group. He also likes to read any notes I give him out loud to the group about dreams he's had etc. Which doesn't make sense role play wise. He also when given instructions by the 'leader' then always passes the messages on incorrectly for some reason. I dunno if he just doesn't think or doesn't listen. But I thought maybe you guys could shed some light on this too as we are going over player problems here Far be it from me to assume I know what I'm doing. But I think he needs to change character type to be more involved mechanistically and rp-wise. Like another person said: They've got to find their style. And it almost sounds like some passive aggressive nonsense being perpetrated here. |
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Post by Sidera on Oct 14, 2016 0:13:17 GMT
Far be it from me to assume I know what I'm doing. But I think he needs to change character type to be more involved mechanistically and rp-wise. Like another person said: They've got to find their style. And it almost sounds like some passive aggressive nonsense being perpetrated here. That's what I thought to but he was adamant he wanted to be a wizard because he thinks hack and slash characters are uninteresting and wants to play an intellectual type. He chose an illusion based wizard with the aim to control the battles via support and let other characters shine but his play style is totally different from the character type he's chosen. My brother is going to run a campaign for us soonish and we've talked him into playing a bard/rogue for that one. Hopefully branching out into another class will open his eyes but for now I don't think there's anything I can do in that regard :/
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Post by DM_tonofbricks on Oct 14, 2016 4:31:29 GMT
Wow so many suggestions on here! I'm going to have to hijack some myself. I'm also having a player issue which seems to improve and then go backwards. My boyfriend is very new to D&D and in our first ever session I DM'd he ended up creating a situation where there was going to be a group TPK due to reckless action and seeing himself as the infallible hero. I was seen as 'harsh DM' for enforcing the consequences of his actions. We ended up restarting the campaign with new characters and explaining to him that some enemies are stronger than you and can't be beaten straight away and there will be consequences to any actions you make. The restart went a lot smoother, he still got mad when he had consequences put upon him but he acted up less so they were a lot less severe than everyone gets stuck in a fight to the death. So I very much found explaining the parameters of the game helped there. If they know some enemies can't be beaten then they can't really get mad when that happens. The main issue I'm having at the moment is he's playing a very support based wizard and hasn't found much use for his skills yet. So when he feels like he isn't contributing (aka the other player and 'leader' of sorts is discussing stuff with the group or negotiating things with the enemy) he starts playing up basically trying to get a fight going or cause discomfort and drama in the group. He also likes to read any notes I give him out loud to the group about dreams he's had etc. Which doesn't make sense role play wise. He also when given instructions by the 'leader' then always passes the messages on incorrectly for some reason. I dunno if he just doesn't think or doesn't listen. But I thought maybe you guys could shed some light on this too as we are going over player problems here Some of the best advice I have ever heard about DMing is that you should think of every session like an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation. I can't remember where I heard it, maybe James from OneShot or Matthew Collevill or even a DMB episode. Anyway, the idea is that not everyone can get showcased every episode. That would be a goat rodeo, with you trying to handle way to much at once. Instead, try to give each player their chance to shine. In TNG, there is always a main plot of the episode, some alien or whatever is interacting in a way that can only be solved by skills of cast member X and Y. Meanwhile, cast member X is exploring their personal goals and growing as a character. Sure, LaForge and Tyler are the ones infiltrating an enemy ship to sabotage the engines, but Data is on the helpdesk, learning about the human experience. Give your PC his day to shine. If he feels his illusions are useless, let the group encounter a terrible beast that navigates solely by sound. Suddenly minor illusion is the best weapon they have. Of course, he needs the barbarian to actually kill the thing, but everyone learns about integrating class skills. Meanwhile, the cleric has seen some text or image that gives them cause to question their faith. The rogue didn't do much, but they know next week they get their turn. |
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dmtreat
Squire
Posts: 48
Favorite D&D Class: Ranger
Favorite D&D Race: Dwarf
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Post by dmtreat on Oct 14, 2016 4:33:07 GMT
Far be it from me to assume I know what I'm doing. But I think he needs to change character type to be more involved mechanistically and rp-wise. Like another person said: They've got to find their style. And it almost sounds like some passive aggressive nonsense being perpetrated here. That's what I thought to but he was adamant he wanted to be a wizard because he thinks hack and slash characters are uninteresting and wants to play an intellectual type. He chose an illusion based wizard with the aim to control the battles via support and let other characters shine but his play style is totally different from the character type he's chosen. My brother is going to run a campaign for us soonish and we've talked him into playing a bard/rogue for that one. Hopefully branching out into another class will open his eyes but for now I don't think there's anything I can do in that regard :/ Maybe he should try being an Eldritch Knight. That way he gets the best of both worlds. On top of that I always think it's a cut short when people say spell caster classes can't do hack and slash. I mean if your boyfriend is playing an illusion based wizard, what's to stop him from creating an illusion for distraction and chopping someone's head off? Illusion based wizards are awesome, there are so many fun things you can do with illusions. |
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dmcabbage
Commoner
Posts: 7
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Goliath
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Post by dmcabbage on Oct 16, 2016 21:12:59 GMT
UPDATE:
I tried some of the suggestions above, and gave a little bit of a one-on-one coaching session about meta-gaming and how to avoid it, and that helped some. I also made a table rule that I will allow up to 3 minutes of out of character context talk per encounter-type scenario, otherwise it all has to be in-character or direct description of behavior or intonation. That helped a lot. I still had to put my foot down twice when faced with this player arguing player to dm about the game, past sessions and npc behaviour/memory, but I managed it much better and it didn't eat up much game time. Thanks everyone for all your help. Now for some more world-building and such!
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Post by DM_tonofbricks on Oct 17, 2016 0:38:41 GMT
Really glad to hear you are away laughing on this one. Nothing feels better than wehn all the players and the DM are on the same page and working together the make "the world" a better place.
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