Samuel Wise
Demigod
Ready to Help...
Posts: 989
Favorite D&D Class: Warlock
Favorite D&D Race: Mousefolk
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jan 5, 2016 18:50:44 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode, since it talked about a very, very central part of the storytelling process. One thing I learned when studying how a story works is that the Green Goblin scene with Spiderman is actually a terrible moral dilemma. Why? Because Spiderman, being Spiderman, saved both the bus and Mary. The purpose of a Moral Dilemma is to force the character to choose one or the other. Absolutely loved this episode!
Chris mentioned something about a happy endings being like getting a N64 for Christmas. That made me smile. There is nothing like getting a N64 for Christmas.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jan 6, 2016 1:40:21 GMT
Yeah, and silly me mixed up the comics and the movies and said Gwen Stacy as that was who was originally tossed off the Brooklyn Bridge and then Spiderman kills Green Goblin with his own glider. Curse so much great stuff from Marvel! Haha. Yeah, this one was a lot of fun to record, as it leaves endless possibilities to break down examples of great dilemmas. Also, this was the first one that I recorded as a host, haha. You can sort of tell as Chris and I mentioned Story Time as this was also recorded before the format change was coming down the pipeline. Now I'm trying to dream up what kind of awesome dilemmas to put my players into, muwahahaha.
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Post by friartook on Jan 6, 2016 19:03:49 GMT
I'm glad you guys covered this subject. For me, a campaign isn't a campaign without a proper moral dilemma, just as a villain who isn't sympathetic isn't a proper villain. I agree with Samuel Wise about the "dilemma" in the Spiderman movie. When I saw it, I didn't even feel any tension, because you know he's going to save both. BORING! Now, Game of Thrones on the other hand... |
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Post by kjmagle on Jan 6, 2016 20:10:53 GMT
Love it. Now i want to have my players meet up with a Suikotsu type npc and then unleash the horrors he did right after they stick for up for the guy because they really like them.
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Post by dm_mainprize on Jan 6, 2016 22:23:53 GMT
That was some tasty meat!!
Edit: Also would love to see the iron golem have the ability to cast an illusion over itself to look like a humanoid. So it could blend in to society. While it hunted for john connor, i mean the artifact...
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Post by joatmoniac on Jan 7, 2016 4:48:08 GMT
The other dilemma that I like is the BBEG who leaves a message at the fork in the road. "I'm only a mile down fork A on a horse with a bum leg, but the orphanage I set on fire is three miles down fork B." Do you save the orphanage to stop the BBEG from doing who knows what? Or home the orphanage pans out and give chase?
I also agree that Game of Thrones is just moral quandary after moral quandary. They almost all turn out bad though, haha.
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Post by friartook on Jan 7, 2016 14:17:05 GMT
I also agree that Game of Thrones is just moral quandary after moral quandary. They almost all turn out bad though, haha. That's the point. Google provides these three definitions of Dilemma: "a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones." "a difficult situation or problem." "an argument forcing an opponent to choose either of two unfavorable alternatives." 2 out of 3 contain a variation of "both choices suck". To my mind, a real dilemma should have no "desirable" solution. The whole point is to force the choice between the lesser of two evils. In an RPG context, it should be next to impossible for the players to find a 100% positive outcome. That being said, if players are exceptionally clever, or come up with solutions the DM didn't think of, one should reward this and allow the solution. After all, finding a solution to an apparently impossible choice is a great victory. |
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Post by galakan on Jan 7, 2016 19:11:52 GMT
I think that if I present my players with a dilemma and they bust their butts (like Spiderman) to try and get both outcomes, then I did something right. A good dilemma might not actually force the player to take a side, it could simply make the situation that much more tense. Granted I would make things really difficult should they decide to go this route. And they likely will not succeed to the degree they want. But I would reward them somehow for coming up with a solution that I didn't directly present them with.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jan 7, 2016 22:41:10 GMT
"an argument forcing an opponent to choose either of two unfavorable alternatives." That is pretty much the exact one we used to describe dilemmas at the start of the episode, haha. I meant more that the GoT ones are extreme cases of dilemmas not to imply that there are good ones, but only that there are varying degrees of bad. Which in reading my post again would be hard to infer from it, haha. I agree with the idea of allowing the players to succeed if they somehow manage to "save both," but Galakan's statement of "to the agree that they want" is important. If the group splits up to stop the orphanage from burning down and get the BBEG then maybe they stop the orphanage, but some of the children have been badly burned. They also reach the BBEG but the party is defeated, but they dealt a strong enough blow to the BBEG that they won't be able to attack for some time. |
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Samuel Wise
Demigod
Ready to Help...
Posts: 989
Favorite D&D Class: Warlock
Favorite D&D Race: Mousefolk
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jan 8, 2016 21:19:33 GMT
So the moral dilemma DMnastics reminds me so much of the character building questions that you go through at the start of every Ultima video game. Here is the wiki article on it: hereAnd I'd highly recommend picking up the free Ultima IV game from GOG and play through character creation. Great Moral dilemmas there. Ultima IV |
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Post by DM Kiado on Jan 8, 2016 23:27:13 GMT
I want to say our game on Gamersplane might have gotten some mention on there? The hey, how's it going.. OMG CHAOS start we had.. haha
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