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Post by kjmagle on Dec 23, 2015 22:32:59 GMT
Just found this and made me laugh allot.
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Post by dm_mainprize on Dec 24, 2015 0:53:11 GMT
But that's just a theory, we have no evidence of that in the story presented to us in the movie so we can't use that as part of a logical reasoning behind why she wins the fight.
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DM Sol_train
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Post by DM Sol_train on Dec 24, 2015 2:27:07 GMT
I can see a lot of your points but I think this was the only option abrams and company had, I feel that they made the move so similar in story and pacing to the a new hope because they wanted to show us they respect and cared for where the franchise came from and to put us at ease that they werent going to go off and just make it their own way and have it feel and be nothing like the original trilogy, I hope that ep 8. is vastly different in story that empire and that things change up and dont just repeat the first trilogy. But I feel they almost had to go this route. Carrie fisher is old, its sad that he acts was flat but thats the way it. What was she in other than the original trilogy that showed her as a great actor? nothing i can remember. Like i said i can totally see some of Sol's issues with the film but I feel like friar does, this was a kinda reset to win the fans back and show them its gonna be taken care of. Now we just wait for 8 and get excited that the crew making these films knows that we know they care. My brother mentioned to me that his hardest struggle with the TFA is that somehow a girl with 0 training in both the force and lightsaber dueling beat kylo ren who had trained under luke. He says that with each new film since the original trilogy that what the "force" actually is and does is confusing and makes no sense. In the original tril the force according to ben kenobi is in every living thing and binds us all together and that a jedi is someone who has trained and can tap into that power to use it for good. in the prequels its some kind of genetic thing that is in you when you are born giving you the ability to then become a jedi, and in TFA its like a mix of the 2. So he just felt like that was a big inconsistency since the force is kind the key feature of star wars. What do you guys think about that idea? One of the things to notice about lightsaber battles pre and post order 66 is you go from a 1000 year style that has been developed by taking the best of any type of martial weapon and passing it on through hands-on training to a more raw "power" style fighting in Episode 4-6. So Ren and Rey much more relying on the force which allows them each to react fast by seeing into the future, rather than any sword-craft. Therefore Rey, if she's much more attuned to the force than Ren (which she must be considering she speaks droid, can fly the Falcon w/o a copilot and -0- flight training, and did fight off his mind probes), she was fighting someone with a little better sword-craft, but who looked like he was swinging in slow motion to her as she was using the force to see what he was going to do before he did it. Plus as Friar pointed out, Ren -very- reckless and prone to tantrums - a funnier part of the movie. So what allowed her to win the fight was a part of the force that doesn't require training, its just considered by most people to be "fast reflexes", the same reason Anakin was the only human to fly a pod-racer. It can also be used with training for longer looks into the future - IE: "Always in motion, the future is." as Yoda told Luke. I didn't think Ep 1-3 changed that the force was in and around every living thing. The midiclorian's just put a name on what it was that flowed with the force...some people and creatures were more force sensitive than others, and the Skywalker family in particular is very force sensitive. Some force powers are just innate like reflex, ability to somewhat read minds (the youngling picture identification test given to Anakin in the Jedi-tower), technology manipulation (that one doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but is consistent throughout the movies). Some improve with training - force push/pull, leaping, mind-probing/mind-tricking, sensing danger, or force-lightening and force-choking with the Sith. I should caveat I didn't hate the movie, I liked large portions of it - Han/Chewy, Ren's struggle with the dark and light within him "I feel the call to the light again..", but maybe my DM side coming out frustrated that I would have preferred a better plot line than Death Star 3. I don't disagree with the assessments of why they did it. But to be honest, they could have achieved the "old feel" - which I believe 100% they did, with a more original story line - probably I'm mostly hung up on the 3rd version of the Death Star. Another thing I didn't like about that, is the 1st Order took 30years to build it...used up its power source in 2 shots, and you can't move a planet. At least the Death Star was a space-station so you could fly it around the galaxy destroying one rebel system after the other - Vader would have force choked the guy who suggested this new 2 shot weapon. Lets not even get started with the fact that after the 2d shot the system would have made Hoth look like Hawaii, on a dark night. Our hero's deserve a better BBEG than this. :-)
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DM Sol_train
Squire
Back behind the screen 20yrs post 2E
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Post by DM Sol_train on Dec 24, 2015 2:42:03 GMT
Just found this and made me laugh allot. Awesome! "Any more good news?"
He's got a lot of Vader in him as Han says....and you can definitely see that between the costume, force-choking, and temper. Who didn't love to hate Vader force-choking his way through a whole star destroyer chain of command in Empire?
I tend to think Rey is Luke's child. Once the Jedi order was destroyed, those rules such as not allowed to marry would have also been abandoned, so its possible he could have openly had a relationship (unlike Anakin/Padmae). Rey's told the lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him, "and now it calls to you".
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Post by friartook on Dec 24, 2015 15:20:39 GMT
On the subject of technology manipulation and the force: I don't think the force has any influence in that way; its just that Anakin, and now Rey, have a knack for technical things. As to speaking droid; that's just a language. Poe seems to understand BB-8 as well, and there's no indication of him having any force sensitivity.
To back up this assessment, here's a little breakdown: Anakin: Good with tech, worked as a slave in a junk shop performing repairs and building droids for fun.
Luke: No visible "bond" with technology, just a really good pilot.
Rey: Makes her living scavenging spare parts out of crashed ships. She had to learn how those things work in order to know which parts are valuable.
Yoda: Lives in a primitive clay hut in a swamp with almost zero tech.
Obi-Wan: Not bad with tech, but no discernible bond with technology.
Now, the Edge of the Empire RPG books offer a couple interesting examples on this front:
1. Droids cannot be force sensitive.
2. In the Force and Destiny book, there is a Jedi Artisan path. This is a Jedi who is a technological tinkerer and uses the force to enhance his creations.
There's also the Light Saber tech; building their own Light Saber is considered a part of a Jedi's training. The central component of a Light Saber is a type of crystal that resonates with the Force; so you have to be sensitive to the force in order to properly build a Light Saber.
There's a scene in the NPR audio adaptation of the original trilogy that isn't in the movies. Its Luke, on Tatooine, after losing his hand and his father's Light Saber in Cloud City. He has returned to Obi-Wan's home and is trying to construct his new Light Saber, but it keeps getting messed up and he's getting really frustrated. Finally, he attempts again, but using his force sensitivity rather than his technical know-how, and succeeds.
I think in the end, all of these people live in a vastly technology driven society. Many people have advanced levels of technical know-how, because they need to; they are surrounded by tech. Technology permeates and surround the lives of these characters as does the Force. But the Force is tied to living things.
Oh, and "midichlorians": the worst thing to happen to Star Wars universe. A really lame ret-con by George Lucas in an attempt to explain hereditary Force sensitivity. I told my EotE group that any piece of Star Wars lore was fair game for characters or world concept, but there are no midichlorians in our Star Wars game world. They do not exist in my personal take on Star Wars.
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Post by DMC on Dec 24, 2015 17:03:08 GMT
But that's just a theory, we have no evidence of that in the story presented to us in the movie so we can't use that as part of a logical reasoning behind why she wins the fight. Sure we do. It's a theory based on the movie itself during the flashback/vision scene in Maz's basement when she touches the Skywalker lightsaber. It can be taken many ways, but evidence for that theory (and others) is there based off of visual and audio cues.
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DM Sol_train
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Back behind the screen 20yrs post 2E
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Post by DM Sol_train on Dec 24, 2015 18:12:44 GMT
On the subject of technology manipulation and the force: I don't think the force has any influence in that way; its just that Anakin, and now Rey, have a knack for technical things. As to speaking droid; that's just a language. Poe seems to understand BB-8 as well, and there's no indication of him having any force sensitivity. To back up this assessment, here's a little breakdown: Anakin: Good with tech, worked as a slave in a junk shop performing repairs and building droids for fun. Luke: No visible "bond" with technology, just a really good pilot. Rey: Makes her living scavenging spare parts out of crashed ships. She had to learn how those things work in order to know which parts are valuable. Yoda: Lives in a primitive clay hut in a swamp with almost zero tech. Obi-Wan: Not bad with tech, but no discernible bond with technology. Now, the Edge of the Empire RPG books offer a couple interesting examples on this front: 1. Droids cannot be force sensitive. 2. In the Force and Destiny book, there is a Jedi Artisan path. This is a Jedi who is a technological tinkerer and uses the force to enhance his creations. There's also the Light Saber tech; building their own Light Saber is considered a part of a Jedi's training. The central component of a Light Saber is a type of crystal that resonates with the Force; so you have to be sensitive to the force in order to properly build a Light Saber. There's a scene in the NPR audio adaptation of the original trilogy that isn't in the movies. Its Luke, on Tatooine, after losing his hand and his father's Light Saber in Cloud City. He has returned to Obi-Wan's home and is trying to construct his new Light Saber, but it keeps getting messed up and he's getting really frustrated. Finally, he attempts again, but using his force sensitivity rather than his technical know-how, and succeeds. I think in the end, all of these people live in a vastly technology driven society. Many people have advanced levels of technical know-how, because they need to; they are surrounded by tech. Technology permeates and surround the lives of these characters as does the Force. But the Force is tied to living things. Oh, and "midichlorians": the worst thing to happen to Star Wars universe. A really lame ret-con by George Lucas in an attempt to explain hereditary Force sensitivity. I told my EotE group that any piece of Star Wars lore was fair game for characters or world concept, but there are no midichlorians in our Star Wars game world. They do not exist in my personal take on Star Wars. Those are some good and interesting points. I would submit that Luke may have been tech-savy. He at least was fixing moisture vaporators for Uncle Owen and was working on R2D2, not a lot to go on but something. But at the same time since tech isn't "living", I don't know how it would align with force powers - maybe just the visualization of how something is supposed to work. Since the force is in and surrounds all living things, I'd also say Po is force sensitive - again more in the fast reflex side of things which is what makes him such a great pilot. good discussion.
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Post by friartook on Dec 24, 2015 18:21:57 GMT
Agreed! Regarding Poe and piloting skills/force sensitivity: I think there is a tendency among us Star Wars fans to overplay sensitivity to the force. While I think everyone has a connection to the Force in SW, not everyone can tap its power the way a Jedi does. That's why some are called "Force Sensitive"; because they can sense and manipulate the force that surrounds and permeates us all. I get the impression that actual force sensitivity is extremely rare in the galaxy; otherwise there would have been way more Jedi. Instead, everybody thinks the Force is a myth and that the Jedi are religious crack-pots or sorcerers. Just because the stories that we see center around those who tap the Force, doesn't mean there aren't billions and billions of people who can't sense the force and think its a myth. I prefer to think that Poe is just a great pilot. I recall a quote somewhere (perhaps in one of the SW novelizations) where Obi-Wan is explaining to Luke that being a good pilot is not hereditary, but that many of the traits that make a good pilot, such as fast reflexes, keen sight, quick thinking and good spacial awareness, are hereditary. In my opinion, assuming anyone who is exceptionally good at anything in Star Wars is using the force belittles their skills. Poe is a good pilot because Poe is a good pilot, not because he uses the Force to be a good pilot.
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Post by kjmagle on Dec 25, 2015 3:44:05 GMT
Well i wouldhave to disagree about that.
Just because you are force sensitive you dont need to become a jedi or sith. If the force surrounds us and everything then everyone can use it.
I would believe that recruiting for Jedi would be for the Force sensitives that have the ability to control more not just say making a fart sound loud.
With enough pratice you can shoot and make allot of free throws however that doesn't mean you are going to make it to the NBA. The force could be the practice but NBA players can also contol jumping, running, blocking, etc.
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Post by friartook on Dec 28, 2015 16:15:07 GMT
You are always to your opinion. Well, kjmagle, as you say... I guess my problem with tagging things with "because the force" is really more of a storytelling issue. It feels like lazy worldbuilding/story telling to me. Like in Harry Potter, where everything works "because magic". In Star Wars, someone is only good at something "because the force". I'll grant that having something like the force being a reality would tie things like "intuition", "gut feelings" and all manner of border line ESP phenomena to the force. But I don't like thinking that someone can only be good at something if they are in tune with the force.
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Post by kjmagle on Dec 28, 2015 17:08:08 GMT
You are always to your opinion. Well, kjmagle, as you say... I guess my problem with tagging things with "because the force" is really more of a storytelling issue. It feels like lazy worldbuilding/story telling to me. Like in Harry Potter, where everything works "because magic". In Star Wars, someone is only good at something "because the force". I'll grant that having something like the force being a reality would tie things like "intuition", "gut feelings" and all manner of border line ESP phenomena to the force. But I don't like thinking that someone can only be good at something if they are in tune with the force. I will agree with that. I think the jedi/sith arr the ones that can tap into the force and the rest is how you say gut feeling and stuff. No do I personally think Poe is a force guy? I say no, however I would never say it is not plausible. Nothing is Star Wars is set in cement in my eyes. That's why I like it so much.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 30, 2015 0:20:24 GMT
Just finished the show and feel somewhat better. There is enough shadow from the book series to appease the SW Nerd inside me. However, I still felt that Ben Solo taking off his helmet was very disappointing. I was expecting the next Darth Vader, Emperor, but instead we got him. Probably the point of the character, but to me, he did not feel Sith enough. Mainprize, it is funny you mentioned the sanitation moment. Because after the movie, I was thinking to myself how somebody with sanitation job had the skills to match a Sith (even a badly injured one) with a weapon that he only used once before. Ah, yes, and Han's dead. Dang. Overall a very good movie. I might hold off on saying it was the best SW film, but there hasn't been a Star Wars product that has impressed me like this since Episode I... for obvious reasons.
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Post by kjmagle on Dec 30, 2015 4:17:44 GMT
Just finished the show and feel somewhat better. There is enough shadow from the book series to appease the SW Nerd inside me. However, I still felt that Ben Solo taking off his helmet was very disappointing. I was expecting the next Darth Vader, Emperor, but instead we got him. Probably the point of the character, but to me, he did not feel Sith enough. Mainprize, it is funny you mentioned the sanitation moment. Because after the movie, I was thinking to myself how somebody with sanitation job had the skills to match a Sith (even a badly injured one) with a weapon that he only used once before. Ah, yes, and Han's dead. Dang. Overall a very good movie. I might hold off on saying it was the best SW film, but there hasn't been a Star Wars product that has impressed me like this since Episode I... for obvious reasons. So just to get your meaning... Ben is not Sith because he is normal looking? He now has a cool scar across his face. So maybe he will be More sithish. :-)
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 30, 2015 4:38:03 GMT
Just finished the show and feel somewhat better. There is enough shadow from the book series to appease the SW Nerd inside me. However, I still felt that Ben Solo taking off his helmet was very disappointing. I was expecting the next Darth Vader, Emperor, but instead we got him. Probably the point of the character, but to me, he did not feel Sith enough. Mainprize, it is funny you mentioned the sanitation moment. Because after the movie, I was thinking to myself how somebody with sanitation job had the skills to match a Sith (even a badly injured one) with a weapon that he only used once before. Ah, yes, and Han's dead. Dang. Overall a very good movie. I might hold off on saying it was the best SW film, but there hasn't been a Star Wars product that has impressed me like this since Episode I... for obvious reasons. So just to get your meaning... Ben is not Sith because he is normal looking? He now has a cool scar across his face. So maybe he will be More sithish. :-) Haha! I know! It sounds ridicule,ous! But I guess I could be forgiven... look at the sith to this point. Darth Vader, evil killing cyborg. Emperor Palpatine, a shriveled up evil monster. Maul a black/red skinned, demon horned, duel wielding fiend. And that one sith who also made me think of Saruman every time I see him, but he is in the second movie, which is one of the worst anyway. And now you have Ben who is... normal?
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Post by kjmagle on Dec 30, 2015 13:40:44 GMT
So just to get your meaning... Ben is not Sith because he is normal looking? He now has a cool scar across his face. So maybe he will be More sithish. :-) Haha! I know! It sounds ridicule,ous! But I guess I could be forgiven... look at the sith to this point. Darth Vader, evil killing cyborg. Emperor Palpatine, a shriveled up evil monster. Maul a black/red skinned, demon horned, duel wielding fiend. And that one sith who also made me think of Saruman every time I see him, but he is in the second movie, which is one of the worst anyway. And now you have Ben who is... normal? Wel they all looked normal until they then got disfigured by something. As I say to all that want more things from the movie "there will be more to come". He is going to have some bad ass scar and i bet a different hair cut and probably a bigger temper. I am actually gld he did look "normal". I like the casting for the whole movie. I never understood why when they turn dark side they start getting yellow red eyes. I am sure it is explained in some book but to me that just seemed like a prequel weirdness.
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