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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 13, 2015 6:34:27 GMT
I've been working Steampunk into my games for pretty much as long as I've been playing tabletop. I tend to play the same handful of characters (with different spins and adaptations) and two of those have a strong steampunk streak through them. The first is Garaf (summed up over in the DMnastics thread). The second is a guy named Gunnolf who tends to show up as a bounty hunter and, at least in D&D, he's usually got a pistol that uses ammunition to cast spells. So he loads a "Bullet of Fireball" and the Fireball effect goes off when the bullet hits its target. Mechanically it's pretty similar to what Artificers do with their Spell Storing Infusion.
In my personal estimation, anything that matches the right aesthetic could be called steampunk, but in order to be good steampunk there needs to be that element of subversion. Some sort of disruptive technology or class/wealth situation that's at least someone crucial to the story and characters. It might not be necessary, but it makes it -so- much better. It's like the difference between Bubblegum Crisis and Ghost in the Shell. Both are cyberpunky anime, but one of them is a really good cyberpunk anime.
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 13, 2015 6:51:10 GMT
Re: Friartook's scenario I'm still sorting through some of the subsequent chatter but I think I can clear up how some of the physics of this would work and how such a scenario might potentially happen. It isn't far off from a setting I've been working on myself so as it happened I've already been looking into similar physics. Planets tend to clear their orbits of large obstructions long, long before any life might spontaneous develop there. Earth managed to clear its "lane" back when it was still a ball of molten rock (in fact, that's largely -why- it was a ball of molten rock). Some of the residual heat from all those impacts is what keeps the core of our planet molten (and thus turning and thus creating an EM field that saves us from solar radiation). So it's a good thing Earth used to be a molten ball of magma. The most likely scenario that I can imagine is that at some point in the past (perhaps while the system was still settling down), a rogue planet passed through the system. That planet had just enough mass to disrupt the orbits of the system and make things pretty katy-woompus. In the process a dwarf planet or moon was slowed enough that it transferred from a planetary orbit to a degrading solar orbit. That then brought it to a point just outside the habitable planet's orbit lane where it got stock in a Lagrange point. If you were really interested you could calculate exactly where that would have to be but you'd need to know the orbital math for the entire system. At first I thought the object might have broken up from tidal forces (a common culprit) but that would be a trick to explain at a Lagrange point (where gravitational pulls cancel out). Perhaps if the object were stuck perfectly between, say, the sun and a gas giant while being tugged on by a much smaller gas giant. The smaller giant tugs on one side harder than the other, but not much harder at those ranges. It would take a long time to break up the moon that way. A collision might do it too but would be trickier to explain since you'd need some crazy momentum to break up a rock that big. In either case, you'd eventually wind up with a giant clump of rubble that's still caught in the Lagrange point. And every so occasionally parts of that rubble would slow down enough (good ol' gravity!) to start falling towards the star. That could give you a steady line of really big debris right across the orbital lane of your planet. At that point it's less a matter of if there will be a collision and more a matter of when. If the rubble is still falling around the star at a pretty good speed then it could take it eons after it starts its fall to meet up with the planet. If your planet is orbiting at 30 km/s and the rubble's going at a cool 15 km/s then it could take them awhile to intersect. Even without strange materials it'll be pretty dramatic when that happens. When the meteor enters the atmosphere its momentum will compress the air in front of it causing it to heat up. That heat will transfer to the gasses around it and that's what causes the glow of a meteor. The heat and stress of the compression can cause the meteor to explode pretty violently just on its own before it ever hits the ground (called a bolide). If you have enough of these meteors along the same area, even if most of them never touch the ground, then you have a pretty severe problem since the atmosphere itself will dramatically heat up (as happened in Seveneves). It's a matter of mass and velocity more than what the meteors happen to be made of. There's too many variables to be certain where the meteors would fall with any precision, but after a couple of repetitions it should be possible to pick up on certain patterns. It's likely that a certain hemisphere would take the brunt of it but given the planet's rotation and the atmospheric effects just being away from that hemisphere doesn't guarantee survival. The safest place to be would probably be the poles, which should enjoy some protection from the EM field (assuming the objects are magnetic) and the Coriolis effect (which should keep the worst of the atmospheric effects away from the poles. The good news is that the proverbial "nuclear winter" shouldn't be a terribly big concern. The Chicxulub Impact almost certainly caused the latest Extinction Event (assuming you don't count humans as an Extinction Event but that's a different topic). However that was one very big rock that came in so fast that the compression effectively boiled the atmosphere. There may have been a winter effect following the impact, but it probably wasn't the biggest cause of the extinctions. Nuclear bombs and geologic events like the Toba eruption cause these winters because of the insane amount of debris they carry up into the upper atmosphere. A meteor impact compresses material rather than lifting it. There can be a certain "spashback effect" and certainly lots of ejecta but those factors aren't as severe as with nukes/supervolcanos. The atmospheric effects might last for weeks, months, or potentially years, but probably not decades or centuries. In this situation I would guess that the best survival strategy is to put as much dense mass between yourself and the atmosphere as possible. Underground bunkers would be a good bet but going deep underwater would be a good bet too. Hollowing out a mountain would be risky if you couldn't guarantee that a meteor wasn't going to flatten it. Even if you could, the atmospheric effects (namely stupid hot and fast winds) might erode some mountains to the point where they're not stable. The poles would probably be safer than anywhere else on the surface but I don't know that they would guarantee survival on their own. They may warm considerably when all that energy enters the atmosphere. I can't really picture any way for an airship to operate in those atmospheric effects but maybe that's where your world's magic comes up. The biggest challenges would be long term. Every time this happens it's an Extinction Event for the world's ecology. Most of the agriculture and wildlife on the planet's surface is going to die pretty quickly. Water could become hard to come by (especially drinkable water). Bacteria necessary for plant-growth are going to charbroil, leaving the soil more or less barren. The ecologies could recover (after all, there's still life on Earth) but not within a century. Probably not within a millennia, not the level that would survive another Event. You could get into Mad Max/postapocalyptic territory pretty easily. But that's assuming a worst case scenario where you have 20-30 house-sized hunks of metallic rock falling in the same hemisphere within a few hours of each other. Perhaps you only get 2 or 3 house-sized meteors. Or maybe they're more the size of a couch. Or maybe the debris comes from the remains of a dwarf planet in the Oort cloud so it has a super-eccentric orbit and only randomly comes around every 10,000 years or so when the orbits just happen to line up exactly right. The rules are straight forward and reliable enough (they haven't failed us since Issac Newton sorted them out) but there's so many variables that you can potentially fine tune it to just the cataclysm you'd like. I love giving these sorts of cataclysms a really good thinking over.
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tribalityshawn
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Post by tribalityshawn on Dec 14, 2015 5:25:55 GMT
Just listened to the episode. I think you guys covered the "steam" part thoroughly, but left out almost all of the "punk." The punk part of steampunk, in my view, has to do with subverting and challenging the governing worldview, in this case of the Victorian age. Without the punk aspect, the Victorian assumptions are just taken at face-value. But punk is about resistance and subversion. The way to work the punk them into games, I think, is to make the PCs the ones who break the mold. The nobleman who becomes a union agitator. The woman who abandons the idea of finding a good marriage to go into sky-piracy. The inventor from one of the colonies who comes to the big Imperial city to make a life for himself. Or, bring in stronger dystopian themes. In a Victorian or pseudo-Victorian setting, you don't have to pretend that it's full of egalitarians - give the PCs something to fight against, and make it costly to do so. There is also a DIY aspect to the punk ethos, which fits perfectly with PCs who are themselves inventors and steam versions of hackers. They capture a steam automaton and re-purpose it. They hijack the giant mechanical spider and turn it on their creators. They create amazing things and give them away for free as a way of upsetting the social order. Etc. Great post, you nailed the 'punk'. In general, the punk aspect has been diluted as pop culture adopts steampunk and our coverage was too. We tried to touch on this a bit, but most people are going to be more interested in adding a little steam to their fantasy world. The players I have played with have created adventurers that generally break the norms. In general, adventurers are highly individual, go against conventions and do what they want in the world. Some recent examples from my campaign: 1) youngest son of a rich perfume empire goes off to become a sailor/pirate and ignores responsibilities. 2) elven noblewoman leaves her homeland before her wedding to elf crown prince to seek out adventure & freedom from set role
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tribalityshawn
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Post by tribalityshawn on Dec 14, 2015 5:34:36 GMT
In my personal estimation, anything that matches the right aesthetic could be called steampunk, but in order to be good steampunk there needs to be that element of subversion. Some sort of disruptive technology or class/wealth situation that's at least someone crucial to the story and characters. It might not be necessary, but it makes it -so- much better. It's like the difference between Bubblegum Crisis and Ghost in the Shell. Both are cyberpunky anime, but one of them is a really good cyberpunk anime. I like how you called out what is "good" steampunk! On subversion in fantasy with steampunk:- having a BBEG that represents the establishment is something I have done. this puts the PCs and the world order at odds. this works well if there is a subtle distopian element to the luxurious world of brass and convenience. - showing how the miners that power the steam of the world live in dirt and grime while the nobles live in a clean world. This can be done in the city or even in something as small as a luxury airship (as Mitch mentioned). players will often side with the oppressed, especially if the oppression is obvious. - even having the players side with saving the elves and nature... especially if that means destroying the source of the steampunk civilizations power - such as if they are using mana/gaia to power their tech - having the PCs discover the secret of how energy is being produced cheap and hoarded - breaking that up and upsetting the order - so all can afford the modern life, not the few. The question I have is do you have the PCs save the day by destroying the steampunk world/upsetting the balance AND if they do - does something worse come in to replace it?
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 14, 2015 6:42:09 GMT
The question I have is do you have the PCs save the day by destroying the steampunk world/upsetting the balance AND if they do - does something worse come in to replace it? I haven't used any of those particular examples but my players have told me I have a tendency of giving them moral quandaries with no clear "good" choice. I give them at least a bare minimum of two different perspectives on a given issue and then leave it up to them which is the better path. In our current campaign one of the possible end game objectives for the party is bringing back arcane magic. However, in this world that power was historically used to subjugate and enslave the "mortal" races so there's a good question about whether or not it should be brought back. In that particular case they have a spectrum of options but I won't know how they'll choose until they get up to that moment. I guess I find that a bit of moral ambiguity lends a new layer of context to a narrative. I like it though it seems like your mileage may vary.
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Dave Irwin
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Post by Dave Irwin on Dec 14, 2015 12:37:57 GMT
I don't know if anyone mentioned this on the thread yet but it seems to fall into the subject matter at least, Bundle of Holding currently have an offer called Ubiquity which includes some high adventure & a lot of the Steam, Nuke, Diesel-Punk that was mentioned on the podcast. bundleofholding.com/presents/UbiquityPlus ten percent of your payment (after payment gateway fees) will be donated to this offer's designated charity, Reading is Fundamental & you get the .pdfs at a pretty discount. I don't work for BoH or any of the publishers but I thought I would let the group know as it may be something people are interested in. If this isn't the right forum (heh) for the post then I will remove
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tribalityshawn
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Post by tribalityshawn on Dec 14, 2015 15:11:30 GMT
I don't know if anyone mentioned this on the thread yet but it seems to fall into the subject matter at least, Bundle of Holding currently have an offer called Ubiquity which includes some high adventure & a lot of the Steam, Nuke, Diesel-Punk that was mentioned on the podcast. bundleofholding.com/presents/UbiquityPlus ten percent of your payment (after payment gateway fees) will be donated to this offer's designated charity, Reading is Fundamental & you get the .pdfs at a pretty discount. I don't work for BoH or any of the publishers but I thought I would let the group know as it may be something people are interested in. If this isn't the right forum (heh) for the post then I will remove These are some good books if you want to jump out of D&D fantasy and into steampunk, pulp, swashbuckling, etc.
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Post by robosnake on Dec 14, 2015 18:46:10 GMT
I'm going to take a moment to shamelessly plug here. Clockwork: Dominion is the best steampunk RPG setting and system I've ever seen or played, and I recommend it highly to any steampunk fan who also likes some gothic horror mixed in. Here's a link: reliquarygamestudios.com/2013/07/07/the-clockwork-roleplaying-game/Full disclosure, I'm also the editor and I've contributed to the writing and design. But what got me invested in the project initially was the fact that even as someone who isn't a huge fan of steampunk and other things Victorian, I would play this game without a moment's hesitation. So, anyway, steampunkery. Oh, and the quick-start rules are free for download, so you can try it out with any money. If you do, feel free to let me know what you think.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 14, 2015 21:11:29 GMT
I'll second Clockwork: Dominion. It is really good, though I've only DMd a one shot, Dominion offers the perfect Neo-Victorian feel. Using cards instead of dice is the added touch that makes the difference. On their website that robosnake wrote above they have links to Victorian England Etiquette, perhaps the perfect thing to increase the atmosphere of the game. Reading the rulebook could also give you some ideas for a Steampunk Campaign.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 14, 2015 22:38:06 GMT
Since I have been building a Steampunk game (with a dash of Japanese myths). I'd love to hear about how you added in a 'dash of Japanese myths'. Sounds interesting. Many of the monsters that inhabit the supposed "world" are based off of Japanese mythology (thanks to Robosnake who has built a couple of monsters that I plan on using: such as here and here). Not only will the world be primarily inhabited by monsters based on Japanese myths, but I am also using primarily Japanese names (and since you cannot really mix Victorian English with Japanese I used Latin instead). One other thing I am doing is reading and learning from Japanese TTRPGs to really get a feel for the style of roleplay that could increase the Japanese flavor of the game. Because I am adding Japanese language, myths and "feel" I am focusing more on a Neo-Victorian game (NeoVic is just Steampunk without the Punk). And I am making the world a bit more "lighter" and less "dirty" then most Steampunk worlds. I am expecting a nice blend of these elements since it has been done before with animes like "Steamboy" and "Howl's Moving Castle" (neither, I admit, I've seen).
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 15, 2015 0:56:48 GMT
animes like "Steamboy" and "Howl's Moving Castle" (neither, I admit, I've seen). I've seen Steamboy twice and I'm still not sure what the details of the plot were. It felt a lot like one chapter in a larger story and if that's so then I hope someday they'll continue with the rest. I don't know that I'd say Howl's Moving Castle is steampunk per se, at least no more so than any other Studio Ghibli film (check out "Castle in the Sky" or, to a lesser extent, Porco Rosso). Either way, they're all good films that pretty much everyone should probably see. So far as fusing japanese lore into D&D you're probably already aware of the 3.0 book "Oriental Adventures". It attempted to patch L5R into D&D 3.0 and it's probably a decent source for what it sounds like you're doing.
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Post by friartook on Dec 15, 2015 18:01:21 GMT
Tesla Ranger Thanks for the science breakdown! I needed that! A lot of it was stuff I should have thought of or stuff I learned in astronomy but forgot. I'm going to have to rethink some details there. Thanks!
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 15, 2015 19:27:01 GMT
It's been cranking in the back of my mind for the past couple days. I keep thinking of one way a recurring meteor storm might happen than I realize some problem with that idea. It's a great bit of thought experiment. They're just falling rocks that are moving at some relative velocity (which describes pretty much all matter). It seems like it should be a simple matter but it's deliciously complicated once you get down to the details. I'm at the point where I'm considering running some simulations in Universe Sandbox (it's a super inexpensive gravity/system/galaxy simulator on Steam) just to see if I can cause conditions like that. Sandbox doesn't really do collisions or tidal forces but it's a simple way to figure out lagrange points at least. My own setting was a little simpler to figure out. I've planned for a moon to hit its Roche limit (the point where the tidal forces are stronger than its internal gravity and the body breaks apart). Most it became a nice, pretty ring but some size-able chunks fall to the planet and create a short period (of about a century) of "Well crap." Those chunks would have a lot of mass but they wouldn't have the same relative velocity as a typical meteor. So while there's ample reason for the sentient species to claim the sky is falling, I think it's also perfectly reasonable that much of the ecology would probably survive. Of course, for something that dramatic there'd be some pretty drastic adaptation and that's something I enjoy playing with too. The campaign picks up a couple thousand years later when the survivors have all developed and adapted separately from one another. For all intents and purposes, they're different species by that point. It's a notion I've been working on for a long time so I was pretty pleased to see Stephenson's take on a similar idea in "Seveneves." In any case I suspect this is beyond the purview of most world building (at least for D&D) but I enjoy it for its own sake.
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Post by friartook on Dec 15, 2015 19:42:57 GMT
The campaign picks up a couple thousand years later when the survivors have all developed and adapted separately from one another. For all intents and purposes, they're different species by that point. It's a notion I've been working on for a long time so I was pretty pleased to see Stephenson's take on a similar idea in "Seveneves." Hooo, you better watch yourself...I'll be just as mad about Seveneves spoilers as I will about Star Wars spoilers...
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tribalityshawn
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Post by tribalityshawn on Dec 15, 2015 20:04:53 GMT
If anyone is looking for inspiration from a Fantasy Steampunk/Magitek setting (vs. something more Victorian), check out Kazu Kibuishi's Amulet graphic novels. - magic - humanoid talking animals - floating cities - airships - dark elves - tentacle monsters - giant mecha and robots
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