tribalityshawn
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Posts: 22
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Post by tribalityshawn on Dec 18, 2015 14:45:56 GMT
So far as Steampunkery goes, does anyone else think that if steampunkers can build airships then maybe they could build some sort of space ship? That might only be believable in a setting where steampunk runs on magic more than steam but then you could send your PCs to the moon to recover the McGuffin artifact needed to slay the beast/save the world/impress the cheerleader. I think thematically going to the moon is a glorified space submarine / large space cannon could work and there are some good 19th century moon stories to pull from such as From the Earth to the Moon or The Time Machine (2002) movie (where the moon breaking apart forces humans underground in the year 2030).
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 18, 2015 15:18:56 GMT
This was a great podcast being both a dragonlance fan and someone who's lost a year or two playing wow I've noticed a commen theme with steampunk in these medevil settings and that's how silly it is I'm not knocking the humor I really do enjoy the dragonlance stories with the tinker gnomes but I always wondered why there seems to be a certain theme of magic being better and more reliable than technology idk maybe things have changed to be honest the last time I played was back when 3rd edition just came out and so I'm not really up with what kind of settings have been released since that era but still I always thought it would be cool to make the tech more reliable and play it as a answer to magic like a place where mages are the ruling class and the pcs need to use this new technology to over throw they're arcane over lords which brings me to another thought has anybody ever created a enginer type class that was more serous than a gnomish/goblin tinker Nice. This is a good idea. Take down Magicratic overlords using the power of tech. Very punk. I think the silly gnomes is a way to limit "steampunk" to a certain area or people in an otherwise fantasy setting such as Dragonlance or my current kitchen sink homebrew campaign setting. My tinker gnomes are far less silly, but the tech has really only been introduced to a couple of cities at this point in the timeline. I think it's important for DMs to be able to introduce tech however they like - but you can't just throw an airship into a fantasy setting and call it steampunk/neo-victorian, there is more to it than that for sure. Gnomes are an easy way to dip a toe into the "steam"-tech pool. Indeed.
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Post by kjmagle on Dec 19, 2015 14:10:36 GMT
I forgot to say i loved this episode. D&D is what you make of it and sometimes being out of the normal realm of just regular fantasy type game it is fun to put a little twist of technology.
I was almost thinking of making one campaign and making it modern times. Maybe spells can be logged onto iBooks.
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Post by janewalksfar on Dec 23, 2015 22:39:05 GMT
I think thematically going to the moon is a glorified space submarine / large space cannon could work and there are some good 19th century moon stories to pull from such as From the Earth to the Moon or The Time Machine (2002) movie (where the moon breaking apart forces humans underground in the year 2030). I'm running a post-apocalyptic fantasy campaign where a war between wizards and a technologically advanced human society effectively "broke the world." The final chapter will take place on the smaller of the world's two moons. The heroes are slowly uncovering advanced technology and there's a tinker gnome in the party, so while I'm not sure yet how they're going to get there, I trust my heroes will create something marvelous.
I love how steampunk carries the imagination into 19th century conceptualizations of space and time travel. As a fan of "soft" science fiction, I don't perceive much of a gap between science fiction and fantasy. Steampunk seems like the best mythos/aesthetic for bridging the two from a fantasy starting point.
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Post by robosnake on Dec 24, 2015 19:01:21 GMT
One nice thing about steampunk is that it almost exclusively draws on technology that pre-medieval people understood. Fireworks were in China more than 1000 years ago; simple automatons were built in ancient Greece, as were cockwork machines like the antikythera mechanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism). They knew that heating water made steam and that steam took up more space, and had plans for things like submarines or sun-powered death-rays. The cool thing being there's no need for any new inventions starting about 1000 years ago to drive a steampunk world. The only thing you'd be missing is electricity, really.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 24, 2015 20:13:41 GMT
I think thematically going to the moon is a glorified space submarine / large space cannon could work and there are some good 19th century moon stories to pull from such as From the Earth to the Moon or The Time Machine (2002) movie (where the moon breaking apart forces humans underground in the year 2030). I'm running a post-apocalyptic fantasy campaign where a war between wizards and a technologically advanced human society effectively "broke the world." The final chapter will take place on the smaller of the world's two moons. The heroes are slowly uncovering advanced technology and there's a tinker gnome in the party, so while I'm not sure yet how they're going to get there, I trust my heroes will create something marvelous.
I love how steampunk carries the imagination into 19th century conceptualizations of space and time travel. As a fan of "soft" science fiction, I don't perceive much of a gap between science fiction and fantasy. Steampunk seems like the best mythos/aesthetic for bridging the two from a fantasy starting point.
Certianly agree, even just elements of Steampunk can add a lot of character to your games, without taking it from the folds of fantasy. Additionally, may I add, your campaign gave me a new idea to use for my own. Thanks!
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Post by janewalksfar on Dec 25, 2015 22:44:51 GMT
One nice thing about steampunk is that it almost exclusively draws on technology that pre-medieval people understood. Fireworks were in China more than 1000 years ago; simple automatons were built in ancient Greece, as were cockwork machines like the antikythera mechanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism). They knew that heating water made steam and that steam took up more space, and had plans for things like submarines or sun-powered death-rays. The cool thing being there's no need for any new inventions starting about 1000 years ago to drive a steampunk world. The only thing you'd be missing is electricity, really. So the idea of different technologies (fireworks in China, plumbing in Rome, etc.) makes me wonder at the whole convention of associating fantasy with the middle ages. Other than minor dips into the Renaissance/Age of Exploration for pirate, swashbuckler, urban style campaigns and the Victorian era for Steampunk, it's honestly just convention that conflates fantasy with medieval worlds. There's no real reason to think that global societies (especially with the added advantages of magic and long-lived species) would stagnate at a particular level of technological development. I'm not familiar with a lot of different campaign settings, so I'm sure there's material out there that breaks the mold, but your "standard" fantasy world is def. technologically stagnant. Why is that? Convention? The fact most settings are built that way? Concern that technology will over-shadow the fantasy elements we love? Having less knowledge about running/designing other eras?
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Post by robosnake on Dec 27, 2015 4:22:47 GMT
One nice thing about steampunk is that it almost exclusively draws on technology that pre-medieval people understood. Fireworks were in China more than 1000 years ago; simple automatons were built in ancient Greece, as were cockwork machines like the antikythera mechanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism). They knew that heating water made steam and that steam took up more space, and had plans for things like submarines or sun-powered death-rays. The cool thing being there's no need for any new inventions starting about 1000 years ago to drive a steampunk world. The only thing you'd be missing is electricity, really. So the idea of different technologies (fireworks in China, plumbing in Rome, etc.) makes me wonder at the whole convention of associating fantasy with the middle ages. Other than minor dips into the Renaissance/Age of Exploration for pirate, swashbuckler, urban style campaigns and the Victorian era for Steampunk, it's honestly just convention that conflates fantasy with medieval worlds. There's no real reason to think that global societies (especially with the added advantages of magic and long-lived species) would stagnate at a particular level of technological development. I'm not familiar with a lot of different campaign settings, so I'm sure there's material out there that breaks the mold, but your "standard" fantasy world is def. technologically stagnant. Why is that? Convention? The fact most settings are built that way? Concern that technology will over-shadow the fantasy elements we love? Having less knowledge about running/designing other eras? Briefly, in a word: Tolkien. He's the granddaddy of fantasy, and his setting is stagnated in the early middle ages. Almost from the moment of creation there are swords and chainmail and sailing ships, but not crossbows or plate armor anywhere to be seen. It's because he was drawing from his beloved Anglo Saxon and Norse sources for his mythos, basically and those are early medieval. Added to that, moving the standard ahead a few hundred years, were the Arthurian romances, and the (anacrhonistic) idea of knights in shining armor. From this we get paladins and so on. A lot of this part was drawn from Renaissance and later artwork depicting the knights in plate armor that was not really developed until the Renaissance. This is where our image of knighthood comes from - the full suit of articulated plate became feasible, and fashionable, just as it was being made obsolete by early firearms. Now, we have the "standard" fantasy setting, stagnated in the late-ish medieval era. Authors and designers have definitely experimented with adding gunpowder, but it makes things difficult in a lot of ways. If I have fire bolt as a cantrip, and you have a keg of gunpowder, I will ruin your life every time. Without the magic, guns of any kind still put holes in your knights and their shining armor. So you get settings with 10,000 years of recorded history that is all late middle-ages Europe. I'm having fun with my medieval South/East Asian inspired setting because gunpowder is already there, as well as other weird things (the first automated factory was built in China in like 900 CE and it was water-powered). There are also settings like Krynn (Dragonlance) that add tinker gnomes and their zany inventions, or World of Warcraft that does the same. But you don't have to go that far - there were clockwork devices in ancient Greece. And even in Middle-Earth, Saruman and Sauron both develop some limited technologies, like the blasting device that blew a hole in Helm's Deep, and what seem almost like semi-modern factories in the Shire under "Sharkey." Ultimately I'd say it's laziness and habit that keeps us with the "standard" fantasy settings being the most popular.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 27, 2015 5:52:55 GMT
Briefly, in a word: Tolkien. He's the granddaddy of fantasy, and his setting is stagnated in the early middle ages. Almost from the moment of creation there are swords and chainmail and sailing ships, but not crossbows or plate armor anywhere to be seen. It's because he was drawing from his beloved Anglo Saxon and Norse sources for his mythos, basically and those are early medieval. Ha! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Tolkien created such a beautiful, well made world its natural to build off of that one. Tolkien created a world and the Fantasy stories, such as Sword of Shannara and The Forgotten Realms, cemented that world into a "genre".
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 27, 2015 15:09:00 GMT
So far as Tolkien goes, he was such a luddite that much of the theme of his books was "progress bad, good old times good". The antagonists of Middle-Earth are the ones employing advancements in technology and Tolkien always focuses on how those advancements are destroying the things that should be valued (nature, culture, etc). For all the value of his works, which is considerable, it's sometimes worth remembering that Tolkien was a stodgy old Oxford professor with a set of values that directly reflected the English academic setting of 1950.
The fantasy genre is colloquially tied to the medieval setting in the same way that scifi is colloquially tied to space. If you're defining the genre by the setting or level of technology (as is often colloquially done) then those conventions hold up. But if you look at the narrative fundamentals of the genre then you'll find quite a few fantasy stories in space (Star Wars) and sci-fi stories in modern or medieval times (District 9, Outlander).
So far as technology goes in actual history, it's a smorgasbord across the planet. The Chinese had loads of technology that nobody else had for centuries (like fireworks). The Native Americans had some innovations that the Europeans never figured out. The Vikings had metal work that you had to go all the way to India to match (probably because they picked it up in India). But I think it would be a mistake to consider these technologies well understood, especially to a layperson of the era. The Middle Ages (which is an anachronistic category itself) spans a helluva long time and hundreds of different cultures, people, and places. I find narratives are considerably improved when they keep that diversity in mind rather than assuming that everyone was always at the same level of technology in every area all the time.
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Post by robosnake on Dec 27, 2015 16:49:58 GMT
So far as Tolkien goes, he was such a luddite that much of the theme of his books was "progress bad, good old times good". The antagonists of Middle-Earth are the ones employing advancements in technology and Tolkien always focuses on how those advancements are destroying the things that should be valued (nature, culture, etc). For all the value of his works, which is considerable, it's sometimes worth remembering that Tolkien was a stodgy old Oxford professor with a set of values that directly reflected the English academic setting of 1950. The fantasy genre is colloquially tied to the medieval setting in the same way that scifi is colloquially tied to space. If you're defining the genre by the setting or level of technology (as is often colloquially done) then those conventions hold up. But if you look at the narrative fundamentals of the genre then you'll find quite a few fantasy stories in space (Star Wars) and sci-fi stories in modern or medieval times (District 9, Outlander). So far as technology goes in actual history, it's a smorgasbord across the planet. The Chinese had loads of technology that nobody else had for centuries (like fireworks). The Native Americans had some innovations that the Europeans never figured out. The Vikings had metal work that you had to go all the way to India to match (probably because they picked it up in India). But I think it would be a mistake to consider these technologies well understood, especially to a layperson of the era. The Middle Ages (which is an anachronistic category itself) spans a helluva long time and hundreds of different cultures, people, and places. I find narratives are considerably improved when they keep that diversity in mind rather than assuming that everyone was always at the same level of technology in every area all the time. Tolkien, and fantasy more broadly, also reflect the view of the ancient and medieval world about progress, which is totally opposed to the modern view. For the ancients, the great golden age was in the past, and the world has diminished since then. That's where fantasy settings get the past golden age/great empire kind of thing, with all of the ruins that are central to most D&D games and settings (for their dungeons). This ancient view of a fall from greatness was present in a lot of civilizations - the Chinese for example revered their past emperors and sages, and just took it as an assumption that older is better, even as they were innovating in some places. The European Renaissance was driven by translations of Greek texts in the same way - it was a recovery and return to past greatness, at least as first. It's a fascinating question, for me, to look at when that view changed over, from traditional to progressive; from the assumption that the past was unmatched in greatness to the assumption that newer is always better.
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Post by janewalksfar on Dec 27, 2015 19:06:32 GMT
It's a fascinating question, for me, to look at when that view changed over, from traditional to progressive; from the assumption that the past was unmatched in greatness to the assumption that newer is always better. I'm not sure that's really changed. There's still that sense of nostalgia here in the US--you know back when men were real men and real women were housewives and no one had to be politically correct. ;-) Modern society is definitely fascinated with the promise of new technology, but we also seem inclined to imagine dystopian futures over utopian ones...or imagine Tolkien-esque green worlds over technologically dynamic fantasy worlds.
We're kind of drifting off from "steampunk" here, so how does that genre fit in?
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Dec 28, 2015 2:51:33 GMT
It's a fascinating question, for me, to look at when that view changed over, from traditional to progressive; from the assumption that the past was unmatched in greatness to the assumption that newer is always better. I'm not sure that's really changed. There's still that sense of nostalgia here in the US--you know back when men were real men and real women were housewives and no one had to be politically correct. ;-) Modern society is definitely fascinated with the promise of new technology, but we also seem inclined to imagine dystopian futures over utopian ones...or imagine Tolkien-esque green worlds over technologically dynamic fantasy worlds.
We're kind of drifting off from "steampunk" here, so how does that genre fit in?
Here are a few ideas. Steampunk seems to be in the same vein. A world that asks "what if technology stopped improving" the difference is that it cuts it off near the Victorian era where there was barely any technology outside of steam. Taking that into account perhaps fantasy isn't about being stuck in the past, but a fantasy is where technology is (usually) defined by the past. Technology does not stop improving it just stays within the bounds of the Middle Ages or the Victorian Era. As passing thought, there is also magic to think about. There is so many luxuries that can be found in magic, which could eliminate the need for some (a lot of) technologies.
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Post by robosnake on Dec 28, 2015 4:06:47 GMT
I'm not sure that's really changed. There's still that sense of nostalgia here in the US--you know back when men were real men and real women were housewives and no one had to be politically correct. ;-) Modern society is definitely fascinated with the promise of new technology, but we also seem inclined to imagine dystopian futures over utopian ones...or imagine Tolkien-esque green worlds over technologically dynamic fantasy worlds.
We're kind of drifting off from "steampunk" here, so how does that genre fit in?
Here are a few ideas. Steampunk seems to be in the same vein. A world that asks "what if technology stopped improving" the difference is that it cuts it off near the Victorian era where there was barely any technology outside of steam. Taking that into account perhaps fantasy isn't about being stuck in the past, but a fantasy is where technology is (usually) defined by the past. Technology does not stop improving it just stays within the bounds of the Middle Ages or the Victorian Era. As passing thought, there is also magic to think about. There is so many luxuries that can be found in magic, which could eliminate the need for some (a lot of) technologies. Yeah, sorry, steampunk. Right. In a way, steampunk is Middle-Earth in reverse. The person with a 'mind of wheels and no respect for growing things' is an industrialist or inventor, celebrated by society and presented as heroic. That's the steam. The punk bit is that this optimism about technology and the future is in contrast, even resistance, to the traditional forces in society. In Middle-Earth, the orcs and goblins, led by Saruman, would be the steampunk heroes, and they would be fighting against the traditionalists in Minas Tirith who want to drag everyone back to the age of kings.
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Dec 28, 2015 16:16:28 GMT
It's a fascinating question, for me, to look at when that view changed over, from traditional to progressive; from the assumption that the past was unmatched in greatness to the assumption that newer is always better. I'm not sure that's really changed. There's still that sense of nostalgia here in the US--you know back when men were real men and real women were housewives and no one had to be politically correct. ;-) Modern society is definitely fascinated with the promise of new technology, but we also seem inclined to imagine dystopian futures over utopian ones...or imagine Tolkien-esque green worlds over technologically dynamic fantasy worlds.
This is such a recurring thing throughout history that it has it's own official term: Juvenoia. Specifically it's the tendency of any one generation to feel nostalgic about "the good old days" and pessimistic about the next generation. It seems to be ubiquitous throughout our history so I'm not sure that sense could be specific to any one genre. As a trope (the ancient, advanced civilization that's fallen) I find it too prevalent to be assigned to any particular genre. It could be a part of a steampunk setting, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.
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