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Post by friartook on Oct 15, 2015 23:08:54 GMT
So...I've got a new to toss out at y'all. I have a player who has purposely min-maxed his character with the goal of him being really good at everything useless to the party.
His character knows a whole bunch of lore, has a high intellect (this in EotE btw) and a high agility, but no ranks in any non-knowledge skills.
He has also decided that combat causes his character panic attacks...
I had planned to give him a knowledge challenges and have him aware of obscure history (he is a 2000 year old droid who was stranded alone on a desolate planet for about 1800 of those years). Instead, he's started taking over piloting tasks; stealing the pilot characters thunder in the process.
So, no specific question here, but I'm interested in your reactions.
He's openly admitted to me that this is a throw away character. He is using this character to get reactions from the other characters. It's alternated between being really fun and funny, and being downright irritating.
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Post by DM Kiado on Oct 16, 2015 17:04:36 GMT
Well, on the bright side, there is a good Gojira song by the same name.
I can't decide if what you are saying he is doing is because he doesn't like his character, or because he does like it, and is getting too caught up in some kind of comedic value he had but now lost. Like a kid who keeps telling the same joke, because they don't have that sense of awareness that it's only funny like 2 times.
I would talk to him, offer him a new character, or if he is down, roleplay the squad turning on him, shutting him down and reprogramming to give him a fresh start essentially.
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Post by friartook on Oct 16, 2015 18:03:41 GMT
Well, on the bright side, there is a good Gojira song by the same name. I can't decide if what you are saying he is doing is because he doesn't like his character, or because he does like it, and is getting too caught up in some kind of comedic value he had but now lost. Like a kid who keeps telling the same joke, because they don't have that sense of awareness that it's only funny like 2 times. I would talk to him, offer him a new character, or if he is down, roleplay the squad turning on him, shutting him down and reprogramming to give him a fresh start essentially. He created a character specifically to get reactions from the other PCs. However, in practice, he's playing it wrong (and I stand by my use of "wrong" here; its NOT FUN, except to him). He's using his PC to get reactions from the other players. A subtle difference, but a big deal to me as the GM. Its a nasty form of Metagaming, and I don't like it. He's one of two players at my table that are textbook Instigators. I don't mind the Instigator play style, so long as its done in character. He openly admitted to me that he is waiting to see how long the party puts up with him. I'm going to have a brief talk with the table regarding keeping the mischief in character, then touch base with him after to set up some boundaries on this front that he is comfortable with. In this thread, I was mostly curious about everyone's DM reaction to such a player/PC.
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Post by DM Kiado on Oct 16, 2015 20:51:06 GMT
I think I am lucky in the group that I usually play with, no one does anything like that.
My DM reaction would be to have a serious discussion with the player. I am all about interesting characters, and playing the way you want. It's a group game though, and if your idea of fun is making it not fun for even one other player, then that is a problem in my mind. Especially in a character driven game like SW:EotE. It's one thing in D&D, where as a DM you can make it tougher to do things like that on the player. I would say "Do you want to be a collaborative storyteller or a dick?" That's not even a joke. When the players are building the game along with you, doing crap just to get a rise out of the other players is detrimental to story, and fun. I would sort of lay down the law. Tell them there are other games we could play where that is more appropriate, but save it for that game.
A player openly admitting something like that, sounds like a "challenge" for dominance against the GM. Break his knees, stand over him and say "Who's the GM ****?"
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Post by friartook on Oct 16, 2015 21:02:40 GMT
A player openly admitting something like that, sounds like a "challenge" for dominance against the GM. Break his knees, stand over him and say "Who's the GM ****?" ^This made me laugh out loud at work! Now that you mention it, comments made on sly to me by another player have led me to believe that this trouble making player was talking smack about me being DM and claiming he could do better. I thought little of it at the time, as I am fully confident he would crash and burn as a DM (too scattered and disorganized; not spontaneous enough). But now...where did I leave that crowbar...? JK, I'm planning on having a talk about it. With him and the rest of the table. I've already send out some messages asking them to ask themselves, "Is this the type of game you want to be playing?" We'll see what comes of it.
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Post by joatmoniac on Oct 16, 2015 21:56:46 GMT
stealing the pilot characters thunder in the process. He's openly admitted to me that this is a throw away character. He is using this character to get reactions from the other characters. It's alternated between being really fun and funny, and being downright irritating. I was 100% on board with it until the first sentence which gave me pause, but the second one is definitely in knee-breaker territory, haha. When openly admitting that the person is done with the character that is all bad. I had a player that wasn't invested in their character any more, and killed them the very next session, and it went pretty well. I can't imagine how thing would have gone if he was stuck playing that character for an extended amount of time. Hopefully the discussions go well, and everything gets resolved!
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Post by friartook on Oct 16, 2015 22:04:48 GMT
stealing the pilot characters thunder in the process. He's openly admitted to me that this is a throw away character. He is using this character to get reactions from the other characters. It's alternated between being really fun and funny, and being downright irritating. I was 100% on board with it until the first sentence which gave me pause, but the second one is definitely in knee-breaker territory, haha. When openly admitting that the person is done with the character that is all bad. I had a player that wasn't invested in their character any more, and killed them the very next session, and it went pretty well. I can't imagine how thing would have gone if he was stuck playing that character for an extended amount of time. Yeah, the thing I most pissed about is him stealing the pilots thunder. It was the first space combat scene we had been involved in, and instead of it being extra fun for our pilot, it left him with a sour taste in his mouth. The more I think on it, the more I feel its about focus. The reason that session rubbed me so raw was that the focus was on messing with each other, rather than on the story and the characters. I don't mind characters messing with one another. I don't mind players messing with one another. But when those things become the focus of the game? I'm out. Not interested. I'd rather have a purely tactical game focus than a game focused on messing with one another. Like I said, there were some pretty funny moments, but it went too far. Also, I should add, that everyone but me had been sitting around for the past hour and a half drinking bourbon and absinthe while watching the Democratic Debate. Some madness was inevitable I think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2015 3:42:59 GMT
To me, this sounds like inviting a friend to play basketball, and every time he gets the ball, he intentionally passes to the opposing team. Then he laughs at your team's horrible score. Then you continue to invite him to future games.
He can still be my friend, but I'm not inviting him to basketball games anymore, until he learns to play right. There are many different opinions on "how to play RPGs right," but having fun at the expense of everyone else is an opinion held only by jerks.
That said, when alcohol is part of the equation, I would anticipate a little more interparty rivalry. Even so, this generally sounds like a crappy situation, and I wish you the best of luck in finding a solution that works for everyone. Being nice and talking it out is always preferable, but don't discount ejecting the problem player if this doesn't remedy the behavior.
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Post by Vulash on Oct 19, 2015 13:11:35 GMT
If I'm being completely honest I don't invite players like this back to the table. If he's admitting he isn't playing the character so much as just using the character as a placeholder to mess with the other PCs - then I'd tell him to either make a new character or not come back. Obviously, this is a friend of yours so you'd want to do it with far more tact and it would be more complicated than I just made it sound, but I put up with this type of stuff so much when I was younger I just don't anymore. Not to say we don't have problems, but never deliberate ruining of the game.
Quick storytime: I had a character that would play similar to this when he wouldn't get his way. This was way back in the just finishing high school age, and I was very new to DM'ing. So this guy made a rogue that followed an evil god (Shay, in Netheril) and was constantly messing with the party and stealing their gear and everything else. Finally, the fighter caught him red-handed sneaking into his room in the night and stealing his equipment. The player kept it in character - dark figure in his room robbing him - and attacked him immediately. The struggle was brief, but the fighter killed the rogue. I let it all stand, and the player spent the rest of his time with a new character sulking. I have no idea how he thought there would be no consequences to stealing from a hero in a medieval setting.
EDIT: Because hitting tab while typing is right out
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Post by friartook on Oct 19, 2015 14:41:14 GMT
So, as I am getting all this advice to not invite this player back, allow me to throw out some context:
I have been a fan of D&D for over 25 years.
For about 20 of those years, I didn't have a group.
I wasn't a player or a DM for that entire time. I just didn't have the culture and support around me; none of my close friends were into TTRPGs. A few were game to try, but the sessions didn't last long. During these years I made characters, read rulebooks, wrote adventures, read novels, watched movies and generally obsessed about D&D and other RPGs so much that I still can't watch a movie or read a book without mocking up a stat block of every main character in my head.
Fast forward to 2014: I'm in my 30's. I discovered DDO a couple years ago, but MMOs just don't do it for me. I read on a blog that one of my favorite authors (Patrick Rothfuss) played D&D and podcasted the sessions. These turned out to be the Penny Arcade sessions. I dug through the D&D podcast archives and listened to them all. Then I searched for other podcasts like that. I discovered many, one of which was a little podcast just starting out. The DMs Block was on its third episode when I found it. Inspiration abounded. I discovered this TTRPG renaissance that is going on and all these amazing creative people participating in it. My dormant desire to game was awakened full force.
But, I'm older now. I've got three kids and two jobs and a relationship to maintain. I still don't have a group of friends who are into D&D. What's an obsessive to do? I made overtures. I chose a good friend who was leaving a place we both worked at. He's a huge fan of Martin and Sanderson; he'd played Baldurs Gate and was familiar with the concept of D&D, but he'd never played. I joked about wanting to start a group. He said, "Yeah, lets do it! When can we get together?" We invited a few more mutual friends, and the Bourbon & Dice group was born.
We've been meeting weekly, from 10:00 to 12:00 PM on a weeknight to play D&D and now EotE, for almost 2 years. We lost one player to a job, and another will be moving in December. Other than that, same guys, meeting consistently for a sustained period.
My 15 year old self would have killed for that.
All this to say: I'm willing to put up with a lot and work with people. Something we tend to forget as DMs: DMs need players as much as players need DMs. I also keep in mind that gaming is not the priority to these guys. They are there to hand out and have fun; they meet weekly in a similar manner to play Sheepshead. The moment I start bringing down the ban hammer and making a big deal about stuff in a heavy handed way; the moment the group feels more like an obligation than a fun time, I'll lose them.
If I lose them, not only will I lose my group, the hobby will lose 5 new players that I've brought in. I feel like its my responsibility to send these guys away from my table searching for a new table. If I tell a player they aren't welcome at our table "unless"...then they will leave and not go looking for a new table to join, they'll just think I'm an @$$hole. If our group ends, I want it to be because life got in the way, not because I made it not fun by telling them how to have fun in a bad way. I'm molding these guys, and they've come a LONG way as roleplayers.
So, while I understand where y'all are coming from (I really, really do, and I very much appreciate the feedback!), "don't invite them back" is not really a viable option to me. I'm going to have a talk about boundaries and collaboration. I don't mind if the Jawa wants to replace the Wookie's shampoo with hair removal cream (this actually happened, btw), I just need the Jawa to have a reason to do it beyond that player wanting to mess with the Wookie's player. I also want the group working together to allow one another to shine. I work hard as a GM to put in scenarios in each session where each PC gets a chance to do something cool they are good at. If another player gets in the way of that, it not only affects that player, it affects me and negates my work. And there's nothing I hate more than wasted work!
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Post by Vulash on Oct 19, 2015 15:29:57 GMT
So, as I am getting all this advice to not invite this player back, allow me to throw out some context: I have been a fan of D&D for over 25 years. For about 20 of those years, I didn't have a group. I wasn't a player or a DM for that entire time. I just didn't have the culture and support around me; none of my close friends were into TTRPGs. A few were game to try, but the sessions didn't last long. During these years I made characters, read rulebooks, wrote adventures, read novels, watched movies and generally obsessed about D&D and other RPGs so much that I still can't watch a movie or read a book without mocking up a stat block of every main character in my head. Fast forward to 2014: I'm in my 30's. I discovered DDO a couple years ago, but MMOs just don't do it for me. I read on a blog that one of my favorite authors (Patrick Rothfuss) played D&D and podcasted the sessions. These turned out to be the Penny Arcade sessions. I dug through the D&D podcast archives and listened to them all. Then I searched for other podcasts like that. I discovered many, one of which was a little podcast just starting out. The DMs Block was on its third episode when I found it. Inspiration abounded. I discovered this TTRPG renaissance that is going on and all these amazing creative people participating in it. My dormant desire to game was awakened full force. But, I'm older now. I've got three kids and two jobs and a relationship to maintain. I still don't have a group of friends who are into D&D. What's an obsessive to do? I made overtures. I chose a good friend who was leaving a place we both worked at. He's a huge fan of Martin and Sanderson; he'd played Baldurs Gate and was familiar with the concept of D&D, but he'd never played. I joked about wanting to start a group. He said, "Yeah, lets do it! When can we get together?" We invited a few more mutual friends, and the Bourbon & Dice group was born. We've been meeting weekly, from 10:00 to 12:00 PM on a weeknight to play D&D and now EotE, for almost 2 years. We lost one player to a job, and another will be moving in December. Other than that, same guys, meeting consistently for a sustained period. My 15 year old self would have killed for that. All this to say: I'm willing to put up with a lot and work with people. Something we tend to forget as DMs: DMs need players as much as players need DMs. I also keep in mind that gaming is not the priority to these guys. They are there to hand out and have fun; they meet weekly in a similar manner to play Sheepshead. The moment I start bringing down the ban hammer and making a big deal about stuff in a heavy handed way; the moment the group feels more like an obligation than a fun time, I'll lose them. If I lose them, not only will I lose my group, the hobby will lose 5 new players that I've brought in. I feel like its my responsibility to send these guys away from my table searching for a new table. If I tell a player they aren't welcome at our table "unless"...then they will leave and not go looking for a new table to join, they'll just think I'm an @$$hole. If our group ends, I want it to be because life got in the way, not because I made it not fun by telling them how to have fun in a bad way. I'm molding these guys, and they've come a LONG way as roleplayers. So, while I understand where y'all are coming from (I really, really do, and I very much appreciate the feedback!), "don't invite them back" is not really a viable option to me. I'm going to have a talk about boundaries and collaboration. I don't mind if the Jawa wants to replace the Wookie's shampoo with hair removal cream (this actually happened, btw), I just need the Jawa to have a reason to do it beyond that player wanting to mess with the Wookie's player. I also want the group working together to allow one another to shine. I work hard as a GM to put in scenarios in each session where each PC gets a chance to do something cool they are good at. If another player gets in the way of that, it not only affects that player, it affects me and negates my work. And there's nothing I hate more than wasted work! I think is great context. A lot of what you're getting from us is a bit reactionary as we hate to hear stories of players doing this to DMs. I've been through long dry spells as well, but my DM background is different than yours. When I was younger I lived in WV and had very limited options - and got stuck in groups that were difficult. Later I had groups with a solid foundation so when we'd bring in stragglers that didn't' want to play well with others we'd just not invite them back. Now I also have a group that plays more casually, but because I work in a science I've found that as word gets out that I play and DM (I'm not terribly secretive when I'm excited about something) more and more people want to play. We actually have a list right now. I guess my mindset is that I could pull a group together at anytime. So very different. Despite our expressed frustration options, you're handling this well. I would still probably try to rope him in quickly, or get a bit more heavy handed with it if he doesn't, because he's going to end up souring the game for the rest of the group and you still won't have the results you're hoping for. Is there a way to reshape the character so that his actions actually fit better with the story, or channel whatever it is that is causing him to have fun? A mischievous droid or something.
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Post by friartook on Oct 19, 2015 15:48:14 GMT
I guess my mindset is that I could pull a group together at anytime. So very different. Despite our expressed frustration options, you're handling this well. I would still probably try to rope him in quickly, or get a bit more heavy handed with it if he doesn't, because he's going to end up souring the game for the rest of the group and you still won't have the results you're hoping for. Is there a way to reshape the character so that his actions actually fit better with the story, or channel whatever it is that is causing him to have fun? A mischievous droid or something. Part of the problem is strictly time constraints. We meet at 10PM on a Tuesday, because the only time I can make work is after 10. I work all day, come home and do family, then work the weekend as well. I can't justify taking an evening or weekend afternoon away from my family just so I can game. So we meet after the kids are in bed. It's tough for everybody to make this work, even though most of the others work night jobs and don't have to be up in the morning. It would be hard for me to find another group willing to work with me on this level. As to the droid, another conversation he and I need to have is whether he's really ok with the group (or me) killing or abandoning his character. He says he is, but if it really happened, he may get upset. A big part of his issue (I think) is that he's the only one at the table whose not a Star Wars fan. So there's less initial enthusiasm right off the bat. He missed our first two character background sessions, so everyone else already had really solid character concepts by the time he came to the table. He and I need to talk about him creating a back up character for when this one "gets disposed of", 'cause the way he's playing, one of the other players is going to off him soon. That is a conversation to have more privately I think.
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Post by Vulash on Oct 19, 2015 16:50:34 GMT
Just throwing stuff out: What if he made a character from a low tech world in the outer rim - something about medieval in technology - that wasnt' really even part of the world, but somehow his character ends up involved in all of this. Then he could play a more traditional fantasy style character lost in this world of technology - the awkward interactions with mundane items might channel some of that need to disrupt.
It sounds like you have a tough group for the FF co-op system. More power to you! Hopefully once it gets fully realized everyone starts to see the potential for fun and takes off with it.
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Post by Vulash on Oct 19, 2015 16:52:05 GMT
Also, we actually play on a similar, though slightly less late, schedule and it's tough. We can only play at one friends house because they can't be expected to get a sitter once a week - so we usually start at 8pm once the kids are in bed and can't go very late because we all work early. I'm learning to adjust my pacing of the story elements to account for shorter sessions.
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Post by friartook on Oct 19, 2015 18:38:51 GMT
So, I just received a message from my "problem droid" that he can't make it to session this week. This gave me pause, and I started to wonder: Is he worried I'll single him out? Is he just not feeling engaged with the game and that's why he's "acting out"? So I called him up.
He's fine, got a perfectly legit excuse for not making it (work). I asked him about his character and if he was still feeling part of the game; asked if he felt like he was being "pushed out". He said no, all's well. However, he said that he is using this character to learn the system, and that he wants something bad to happen to him so he can roll a new one once he understands the system better. This makes sense given his personality, how our D&D sessions went and considering how the session went for him; he got one-hit out of a failed social interaction and was flabbergasted that his high agility did nothing for him on defense.
When I mentioned the problem I had with the "metagaming" of using PCs to mess with players, he gave the big "Oooohhhh," seemed like he got it. So, no exciting confrontation to be had this week, just a talk with the group on collaboration. Hopefully we can see some improvement! I have high hopes!
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