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Post by DM Exitium on Mar 21, 2017 18:00:58 GMT
I'm facing a balance issue that one of PC's is failing to see eye to eye with me on.
He's playing a bard, now level 13 and a warchief with an army of NPC's and 100 or so knights sworn to him.
The problem: He takes these 100 or so knights with him everywhere. The other PC's are okay with his NPC warriors helping get through mobs and the more "random" encounters that lead up to the big boss. When it comes to creating balanced fights, him dragging these NPC's everywhere makes it nearly impossible for me to make a challenging and fair fight.
The in-game solution that failed: I tried to tell him that, as the PC's go into the final chamber to face the Drow Lords and ladies holding the city, that his knights and armies take the walls and the rest of the city while the 5 PC's go into the boss fight. ----- He refused saying "this is what my character does. I'm a warchief. My honor guards aren't leaving my side." and I allowed him to keep 20 of the 100 knights for the boss fight. Needless to say, his 20 knights were able to do just as much or more than one of their level 13 PC's because of bounded accuracy, and the fight became a joke with the knights sweeping the field.
The out-of-game explanation that failed: Myself and the other players told him that if he continues to bring his knights to every fight, it will be increasingly difficult for me to balance encounters to make it fun and challenging for everyone. The more numbers he throws at enemies of the group, the more numbers I as DM have to throw back at them. It's the classical DM vs PC arms race, we told him, and I as DM can choose to win that fight at any moment which could accidentally end up as a TPK. Since its just the Bard participating in this issue of Attrition vs me the DM, the rest of the group feels overshadowed and like their PC's are at risk of dying from circumstances outside of their control now.
He again explained that this is the purpose of his character, to command, control and conquer. He's still failing to see that his epitome of success and fun is kind of ruining other peoples fun, and just said he has faith in me to balance the encounters moving forward. I'm not sure how else to fairly defuse the situation without pulling some unfair tropes like -"The wizards tower throws down fire balls, killing all but 2 of your knights, and the party!" or things of that nature just to make the math simpler for myself.....
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Post by Jesse Ross on Mar 21, 2017 20:08:19 GMT
Moving around 100 troops is sure to be a heavy burden: supplying food and other material goods, keeping morale up, not destroying or depleting local economies. Surely one of his men will get into some sort of trouble, whether through their own doing or through manipulation from forces that want to take down the party. Is there anyway to use his men against him?
Failing that, the rest of the party sure seems upset with his actions. It sounds like he's walking a dangerous path, maybe even one that leads into him becoming the BBEG...?
That might not be quite the response you want, but those scenarios are what immediately came to mind.
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Post by 00dlez on Mar 21, 2017 21:52:42 GMT
Not to be disparaging, but it sounds like there was some miscommunication at the start of the campaign as to character goals, intentions and in game implications. You're past that now, though, so just focus on moving forward. I'm not a 5e player myself, so addressing the issue mechanically is out for me, but.... I do like the idea of actually having to deal with the burden of logistics for 100 armed men, so long as it isn't interfering with normal game play for the other players. If the Bard misses out on a night in the tavern that the other PCs RP out because he is haggling over a wagon of grain, that can keep the other players engaged and center stage. 100 attack rolls in battle ensures some degree of success, just like 100 saving throws will ensure some degree of failure. Just like real medieval armies, disease can be a BIG problem... Getting to know 100 NPCs intimately is going to be difficult, even for a charismatic Bard. Perhaps the ranks are infiltrated by foes who turn against the party and other knights during a pivotal encounter. The NPC knights are just that, NPCs. If the player is playing them as hive minded slaves that are reacting to his whims with perfect accuracy and without hesitation, that is a huge break from how large units actually fight. Either the DM should be dictating their battle actions or the Bard and/or other commanders should be using their actions to command the large group, with a possibility of failure. It's 3.5e, but you might get some ideas for "unit" fighting from the Heroes of Battle splat book... It could at least give you some ideas for how commands might break down and bring some fog of war to these large battles the PC is creating. Dissent in the ranks could be a major problem too. Are 5 knights killed every time the PC goes on a "mission" and the PC comes back healed up with a pile of loot? They swore to protect the Bard (or whatever), not be cattle-esque human shields. Does 5e have any sort of modifiers to follower count like 3e had for leadership feat? Scrutinizing those a little more closely might give the Bard an incentive not to bring the whole army to everything he does.
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Post by dmgenisisect on Mar 21, 2017 22:03:15 GMT
My main concern was when he said "This is the main purpose of my character." if they mean this in an RP sense you need to remind them that RP things shouldn't allow you to break the game. If the meant this mechanically... Then something has gone wrong. I'm not sure what edition your playing, if it was 3.5 make sure your 100 knights actual fits the rules for cohorts. If it's 5e you had to have homebrewed this so you should remind your player that it is your job to balance things mechanically.
Another note assuming it's 5e... The rules for awarding XP is that you subtract the XP value of creatures that fight with the PCs. I suspect this means that the XP for any encounter they face is 0. Remind the PC of this.
Some general things you could try; Pitch then in mass combat, where the knights are tied up fighting the other army (in the background) and the party has to face off against some elites. If you want to reduce the number of Knights get them to go up against a dragon; high AC and frightful presence means that the Knights probably won't be able to hit, and that AoE breath weapon will probably one shot a large number of them, but the PCs should be more then able to handle them.
Another note about your scenario, I would have said that all the Knights were needed to take the wall because I'd not the PCs would not have a way to retreat and would surely have lead to them loosing the day. He is warlord after all, so the character would make tactical decisions...
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Post by DM Exitium on Mar 21, 2017 22:19:39 GMT
Not to be disparaging, but it sounds like there was some miscommunication at the start of the campaign as to character goals, intentions and in game implications. You're past that now, though, so just focus on moving forward. Thanks @jesse Ross and 00dlez! You're not disparaging at all 00dlez, but good point. This group is 2 years into these PC's now, and at the start they were all brand new to D&D and tabletop RPG games except my 1 friend playing the wizard in the group. Session 0 was very unfulfilling for me, because they didn't really know what they wanted out of the game yet until we played and they learned what they liked and got to know their characters a little better. So this is me focusing on moving forward: His bard could very well become the BBEG for the next campaign after we conclude this one, but for now, the main campaign is facing total planar collapse and extinction so they (the PC's) view this half-orc bard (his PC) and his army as a means to an end to save the world from the current BBEG. They've turned a blind eye to what his domination of the material plane could become.....I've considered this and have started outlining what the world might be like in 100-200 years if orcs took over as the most populous and common race in my homebrew setting. As for elaborating more on the NPCs...its overwhelming. He has more than just 100 knights, but also 6000 normal orcs that follow him as well. Another PC in the group became the king of a dwarvish mountain and has ~10,000 dwarves at his disposal but he keeps no honor guards and trusts the governing to a council of advisers. The dwarf PC even fleshed out the NPC's for who his council members were and everything. It was an RP success. When the half-orc bard seized control of his army, he didn't view it as RP opportunity, but a #'s game at that point. He spent all of his gold and platinum to outfit his 100 knights with mithril weapons. Most of all, he's afraid to lose his knights. But I don't want to take them from him just because he's using them the way he wants too and not the way I (or the group) want him too. For the Morale and Mass Combat mechanics, I speed things up with the 5e "Handling Mobs" table from the DMG and the new 5e UA Mass Combat mechanics to not bog the game down in logistics. However, the UA is only 2 weeks old and not balanced by our playtest. And the Handling Mobs table warns that it can quickly become very unbalanced if the #'s favor one side. Eureka! I think I figured it out! PC combat rounds are 6 seconds long. Mass combat rounds are 1 minute long. If he wants to use his 6 second action to command a unit of troops to do something, it sounds reasonable that the unit of troops won't receive the orders-->get organized-->then attack until 10 normal combat rounds later. That could set up some good RP like: [Start boss fight] 2 rounds in, party is getting nervous. [Bard calls for reinforcements or instructs a tactical attack or ambush to help the PC's] I as DM notify the players that Thokk's knights are on their way and will be here to help in 10 rounds! I might try this out next. If this doesn't work, I may have to focus on his NPC's more to mess with him as per both of your suggestions. I've avoided doing this so far because Thokk already has enough time in the spotlight and trying to mess with him and his army in this way will just give him more "stage-time" on game day than the other PC's which is part of what I'm trying to avoid.
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Post by DM Exitium on Mar 21, 2017 22:45:59 GMT
Some general things you could try; Pitch then in mass combat, where the knights are tied up fighting the other army (in the background) and the party has to face off against some elites. Another note about your scenario, I would have said that all the Knights were needed to take the wall because I'd not the PCs would not have a way to retreat and would surely have lead to them loosing the day. He is warlord after all, so the character would make tactical decisions... I tried the mass combat background thing. He had 500 normal orc soldiers that went off in the background and I tried to force his 100 knights to go with them once they reached the Drow Ladies and Lords, but he refused and insisted he keep at least 20. Which I foolishly allowed. So I added an extra 40 drow in mobs to slow down and balance the boss fight. The sleeping poison helped add a sense of urgency as they had to stop and wake some people up as they charged the boss, but ultimately, it was still an easy encounter for them and it should have been deadly. The dragon thing might be next! I'm excited for that...I'll be trying the Ancient Sea Dragon from the Tome of Beasts on them with hordes of Kuo-toa that worship it.
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Post by 00dlez on Mar 22, 2017 3:07:52 GMT
So this is me focusing on moving forward: His bard could very well become the BBEG for the next campaign after we conclude this one, but for now, the main campaign is facing total planar collapse and extinction so they (the PC's) view this half-orc bard (his PC) and his army as a means to an end to save the world from the current BBEG. They've turned a blind eye to what his domination of the material plane could become.....I've considered this and have started outlining what the world might be like in 100-200 years if orcs took over as the most populous and common race in my homebrew setting. As for elaborating more on the NPCs...its overwhelming. He has more than just 100 knights, but also 6000 normal orcs that follow him as well. Another PC in the group became the king of a dwarvish mountain and has ~10,000 dwarves at his disposal but he keeps no honor guards and trusts the governing to a council of advisers. The dwarf PC even fleshed out the NPC's for who his council members were and everything. It was an RP success. This could be a great opportunity if you all are planning to wrap up the campaign anyway. 2 PCs already have grand armies/settlements under their belts, I think it's a great idea to encourage the other PCs to pursue a world changing legacy and then fast forward... 1000 years? And see what has happened to the world as a result. It doesn't have to be based on armies or settlement building - the wizard for examples could devote his years to founding a wizard school, or maybe researching a world changing spell - something akin to floating cities or the network of portals from 3e forgotten realms. The next campaign can focus on the results of the current PCs actions, for better or worse, intended or unintended! You could even make this intention known and let the players craft their legacy. In the meantime, it sounds like you have some new ideas to keep the encounters engaging. Another thought I had was to shift some of the action away from strict combat and maybe bring in "skill challenges" (a 4e term, easily adapted to any version though). While the knights fight mobs, the wizard may need to use magic to disable a device, or identify some specific spells he can use to do very specialized tasks (trap a demons soul in a jade box, sealing or opening a planar portal, channeling his magic through a device that turns it into a devastating weapon, etc). Not sure about the rest of the party, but whatever those classes excel and specialize in, throw in some aspects that only they can handle, even if it's not combat... Assuming of course your players would like that sort of thing. Not everyone will, and that's fine too.
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Post by dmgenisisect on Mar 22, 2017 6:56:21 GMT
When the half-orc bard seized control of his army, he didn't view it as RP opportunity, but a #'s game at that point. He spent all of his gold and platinum to outfit his 100 knights with mithril weapons. Most of all, he's afraid to lose his knights. But I don't want to take them from him just because he's using them the way he wants too and not the way I (or the group) want him too. This is actually a pretty decent tool you can use against him. Point out that splitting his forces will make them more likely to take loses. Also they should definitely takes losses over the time. No matter how good their armour is the should be taking losses!
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Post by dmgenisisect on Mar 22, 2017 7:10:44 GMT
Also Mithral weapons? Did you brew that up? What do they do...
Also you let him buy 100+ magic items what were you thinking? There's a reason the DMG only gives rarity, it's to allow you to control supply. My PCs couldn't give me enough gold for me to hand out that much magic...
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Post by DM Exitium on Mar 22, 2017 11:05:02 GMT
Also Mithral weapons? Did you brew that up? What do they do... Also you let him buy 100+ magic items what were you thinking? There's a reason the DMG only gives rarity, it's to allow you to control supply. My PCs couldn't give me enough gold for me to hand out that much magic... Well, they had earned quite a bit of platinum. I warned them it was an Epic Fantasy campaign to set these characters up in my homebrew setting kind of like the legendary figures akin to Drizzt Do'Urden, Wulfgar, Elminster etc in published settings for our next homebrew campaign. Mistakes were made when doing the calculations for their loot in the DMG treasure tables and I may have rolled on a table higher than I should have by accident a time or two. My bad, but I didn't want to ret-con take their gold away 6 months later because I messed up. The dwarf king was also collecting taxes and using some to fund their adventures since the dwarf king "hired" his friends the PC's as his honor guards. It was a political uproar at the time in dwarvish culture but they moved past that and still had some tax money to spend after the collapse of his kingdom...he's kind of like Thorin Oakenshield....but with 10,000 refugees that he keeps safely deposited at allied positions.
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Post by DM Exitium on Mar 22, 2017 11:17:22 GMT
This could be a great opportunity if you all are planning to wrap up the campaign anyway. 2 PCs already have grand armies/settlements under their belts, I think it's a great idea to encourage the other PCs to pursue a world changing legacy and then fast forward... 1000 years? And see what has happened to the world as a result. It doesn't have to be based on armies or settlement building - the wizard for examples could devote his years to founding a wizard school, or maybe researching a world changing spell - something akin to floating cities or the network of portals from 3e forgotten realms. The next campaign can focus on the results of the current PCs actions, for better or worse, intended or unintended! You could even make this intention known and let the players craft their legacy. I like the ideas! You even called some of them right on the nose. The wizard wishes to start his own university of Magic studying all the schools equally and would even welcome bards. After establishing that, he wants to true Polymorph himself and his black dragonborn love Onyxia (barbarian PC) into True Dragons, himself Blue and her...I'm not sure yet, she hasn't decided what color...With the campaign being epic fantasy, some gods are dying. Nerull, Tiamat, Bahumat and Gond are key ones for the story. I was hoping Onyxia would want to change her scales to all chromatic colors (like saruman's robe in the books) and take Tiamat's seat as Goddess of Chromatic dragons. Likewise, I was hoping her lover and the wizard Aaelar would be offered the seat of Platinum Dragon and take Bahumat's role as he wants to resurrect the race of true dragons. (they are extinct in the homebrew setting). This will be offered to them, but of course, we all know players can surprise us and they might not accept the responsibility. Skamos, the tiefling druid, I was hoping would replace Nerull as God of Death, as his character has been taking a very zen and balance of life and death kind of role and he views himself as a sort of "justice" to enforce that balance. So he hates undeath, vampires, liches, etc. (I homebrewed God of Death as Archdevil of the Nine Hells and decided not to use Asmodeus). He also wanted to RP that when he casts spells, he has to kill the surrounding plant life to do so. Sometimes there isn't always sufficient life to support 6th or 7th level spells so he relies on shapeshifting. Thokk, the warchief bard, might set up a dark new world where orcs rule and they worship Thokk as a new God of War and Conquering but he has long since been dead. The Dwarf King John Deere Gondson III worships Gond so I'm not sure how he'll react or want to wrap up his character. I may extend an offer for him to become the new God of Craft and Lord of Mechanus. We'll see. I'm hoping to wrap up this campaign and have epilogue night sometime this year. We only play 1/month so it's brutal.
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