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Post by blakeryan on May 31, 2016 7:47:02 GMT
Another good ep with plenty of ideas and movie references flying around. Here's an Aberration based idea people may want to use for World Creation... Aboleth created the world with magic and ideas via the astral plane. Mind Flayers followed the Aboleth through Astral Space. They scried upon the creatures of this new world. The scrying enhanced, altered and twisted some of these creatures, and they became the first gods. While the Aboleth and Mind Flayers continued their ancient war on this new world, the new gods created the elder races like Elves and Yuan-ti... - This could mean that Aboleth create dragons and mind flayers create giants. - This would set the scene for a ancient era bronze age with mortals scrambling for knowledge and shelter while the big boys empires rise and fall. Mortals scramble out from the ruins to forge the new nations. - This could also mean there are some ancient lairs of aboleth, mindflayers & their minions, also there would be many portals to astral space. - This could also mean some races are fashioned by Mind Flayers against Aboleth and their minions.
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Post by DM Chris on May 31, 2016 20:46:12 GMT
Another good ep with plenty of ideas and movie references flying around. Here's an Aberration based idea people may want to use for World Creation... Aboleth created the world with magic and ideas via the astral plane. Mind Flayers followed the Aboleth through Astral Space. They scried upon the creatures of this new world. The scrying enhanced, altered and twisted some of these creatures, and they became the first gods. A world created by Aboleths and Mind Flayers...That sounds like an awesome world to play in, but would be a terrible world to actually live in. I like it. I can just imagine what their enforcers of the law look like...not a pretty picture!
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Post by robosnake on Jun 1, 2016 14:45:28 GMT
So, Middle-Earth has a single god, Eru Illuvatar, though yes, there are the Valar below Eru, and they almost never take a direct hand in the world. But Illuvatar is the sole creator deity, who creates from nothing - much like with Narnia, this is probably in large part because the author was a devout Christian. One thing I've always found interesting about Middle-Earth, though, is that there is essentially no religion. There aren't any clergy in any age of the world, or anything like a church or temple, or even rituals beyond maybe wedding ceremonies.
Also, I encourage everyone who is interested in creation stories and worldbuilding to read the Ainulindale, which is the first part of the Silmarillion. It's short, beautiful, and really interesting. People think of the Silmarillion as hard to read, which parts of it are, but the Ainulindale in my view is hands down the best creation story in any fantasy setting.
Also, the Wheel of Time is not monotheistic, but it is like Zoroastrianism in that there is a creator deity (I think they call it/him the Source) and the Dark One, who are powers contesting each other in the world. Like Middle-Earth and Narnia, the Wheel of Time's setting is intended to be connected to our own, though this is made a lot less explicit in the books. But I tend to think of the WoT as essentially monotheistic, since the Dark One is more like Melkor - unable to truly create anything, but able to corrupt anything.
I have been thinking about the lack of monotheistic fantasy settings recently, though, which I also think is interesting. It's inspired me to create a monotheistic setting for my next campaign, but I'm trying to put a different 'spin' on the monotheism since, as you pointed out, it's hard for a single all-powerful deity to be a compelling character in a RPG.
Anyway, lots of think-fodder in this one.
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Post by DM Chris on Jun 1, 2016 19:36:17 GMT
Anyway, lots of think-fodder in this one. I've thought a lot about doing this just because it's so hard for me to remember all the gods that find their way into the games. It is simple and yet not at the same time. There could be a lot of interesting ideas that could come out of there only being a single god in your rpg world. I would be interested to hear how it goes for you in the future.
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Post by friartook on Jun 1, 2016 20:41:24 GMT
I find it telling how we keep referring to gods as "characters" in our campaigns.
The gods in my world are not "characters". They are icons of religions. The whole basis of religion is faith. If you receive miracles and messages from your gods, why do you need faith? If gods gain power based on "faithful" followers, and they are able/allowed to influence that faith with direct action on the faithful, how can that still be called faith? If you gain divine magic through prayer, and you know that magic is proof of your god, does that bolster your "faith score" or reduce it? That is: does confirmed belief increase or decrease faith?
The whole point of the concept of religious faith is NOT having proof and believing anyway. To me, that has always been the power of religion, both real and imaginary. In my settings, even if the gods are real (and my players have no idea, one way or another) it is faith which brings forth divine magic. There is real power in blind faith.
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Post by catcharlie on Jun 1, 2016 21:19:11 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode, I love world building.
I ended up pausing the episode because I kept on having Ideas that I had to note down on my phone.
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Post by robosnake on Jun 2, 2016 20:09:17 GMT
I find it telling how we keep referring to gods as "characters" in our campaigns. The gods in my world are not "characters". They are icons of religions. The whole basis of religion is faith. If you receive miracles and messages from your gods, why do you need faith? If gods gain power based on "faithful" followers, and they are able/allowed to influence that faith with direct action on the faithful, how can that still be called faith? If you gain divine magic through prayer, and you know that magic is proof of your god, does that bolster your "faith score" or reduce it? That is: does confirmed belief increase or decrease faith? The whole point of the concept of religious faith is NOT having proof and believing anyway. To me, that has always been the power of religion, both real and imaginary. In my settings, even if the gods are real (and my players have no idea, one way or another) it is faith which brings forth divine magic. There is real power in blind faith. This would be a big detour, but I disagree about the nature of religion. Blind faith isn't required, and historically hasn't been that common, at least not in what I've studied. It is also usually not really blind faith once you get down to it, more often faith based on things that aren't necessarily available to everyone, like particular insights or experiences and that sort of thing. In my view, gods are characters in games because they are characters in our world as well. We learn about gods, for the most part, through stories in which these gods are characters. The Bible is one example - it almost never lists any particular list of God's attributes, but rather tells various stories about people and God. Same with Norse gods, Hindu gods, Daoist immortals, Greek deities, etc. In a pantheistic world, you just have multiple gods, all characters of various types, all offering different things and demanding different things and each with their own personality. In a monotheistic setting this is tougher, but even God in the Bible has a personality, particular priorities, etc. I get what you're saying from a modern point of view - we don't use religion to explain very much anymore. But in the ancient world, pretty much any time more than 500 years ago, and almost everywhere more than 200 years ago, the whole world was taken as evidence of religious claims, and I draw on this view for a fantasy setting. Even if you have proof, the gods still have different personalities and different agendas, and you can choose to align with them or contend with them or flee from them, etc., like any other very powerful character.
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Post by friartook on Jun 2, 2016 20:43:46 GMT
robosnake This is absolutely a detour/derailment, but its also an interesting worldbuilding point to explore. On faith: In our "real" world, faith kind of has to be blind, doesn't it? Even if our experiences tell us God (or Gods) intervenes in our world, there is no empirical evidence of it. Many of us believe we feel a divine influence in our lives; something bigger than us (me included), but we can't point to something that will make a skeptic believe. Gods are characters to us because that's all they can be. Stories. Myths. Legends. The situation in a D&D fantasy world is drastically different. There is PROOF of a god's power in the form of divine magic. Gods aren't just stories to the PCs in a D&D game. They are real being of great power that directly affect the world through the gift of divine magic (if not in other ways too). Like Aram said in the episode (paraphrasing), "Just casting a Light spell would be a wild miracle in our world." This stuff is common place in the standard high fantasy setting of D&D. I'm trying to ask, "How does this affect the religious attitude of the people who live in these worlds?" It's a game changer. This is a level beyond the beliefs of ancient people on Earth. This is summoning demons that can kill a whole city, talking to extra-planar beings, making things explode or change. This isn't praising the gods as the seasons change or believing a volcano erupting is a sign of divine anger. This summoning spiritual guardians to protect you in combat, creating magical shields, commanding the actions of others, and on and on. BRINGING PEOPLE BACK FROM THE DEAD! From a PC's perspective, Gods aren't characters in stories. They are sources of power. This delves into the question: What's the difference between a Warlock and a Cleric? Just power level of the patron? Is there something else? I hope I am not upsetting or offending anyone. I respect those who take religion seriously. I am just asking questions. For me, asking questions is a personal ethic and I mean no offense to anyone's personal beliefs. I'm just exploring narrative ideas.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jun 2, 2016 21:41:06 GMT
I think this conversation has been objective, and can remain so as long as most things are geared towards, and framed in the context of narrative themes and world building.
I think that it still requires some amount of faith on the part of the cleric that the deity will see fit to bestow the power that they are asking for. Some of this narrative element is taken for granted by players and DMs alike. Make it so that a Cleric can't cast their spells anymore and the questions will fly. What did I do to anger my deity? What can I do to change it? What has happened to my deity? So on and so forth. The cleric could also have faith that their deity will continue to align with the tenets that they know, and make deity level choices that they would agree with.
The other interesting topic that this discussion made me think of was the fact that magic is so common place in most fantasy worlds. Be that arcane, divine, rune, warlock patron, etc. As has been theorized in the Thor Marvel movies there is little difference between magic and technology. In addition it could be, and has been, theorized that the our world is less religious now than ever before because of the level of technology that we are afforded. I would wager that some clerics lack real faith, and many wizards would have none at all.
I think a lot of these questions make for some awesome story telling inside of a game. Especially with a group that is mainly dependent on divine magic.
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Post by friartook on Jun 3, 2016 2:14:11 GMT
I feel like I need to give some context to my train of thought/commentary on this. 3 out of 4 of my players were raised in small, insular fundamentalist christian communities. 10+ kids, farmer level work ethics, home schooling, very large extended family networks. 2 out of those 3 went to seminary school and were on track to join the clergy. They both left before completing their training, each for their own specific reasons that can be summed up as: They are both incredibly intelligent people, they asked probing questions of themselves and their teacher, and were dissatisfied with the answers (or lack thereof). No judgement from me on any of that; either on their own experiences or those of other that may differ. Not making any generalizations. Just stating circumstances at my table. The second piece of context has to do with this: None of my players would understand what it meant if I took away their cleric's casting ability. I would have to explain the larger context, something most of us on this site take for granted. None of these guys are D&D nerds at all; they only know what I've told them. I mentioned that Divine magic comes from prayer and a deity, and that arcane magic is more like "magic engineering". They nod along and don't really care. This puts me in an interesting conundrum on a lot of places with my group. They wouldn't get the context of what was going on in scenario joatmoniac outlined. Because of this, and their own real life backgrounds, my mind is on issues of faith and distant gods that one has to put effort in to believing in, as opposed to clear and present extra-planar gods in the usual D&D context. I'm trying to find angles to hook and pique their interests and emotions. I'm trying to engage them on a higher level than, "kill monster, get loot, level up". So while my discussion may have veered into the realm of real life religion, I only went there in an effort to find interesting ways to engage my players in these issues.
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Post by friartook on Jun 3, 2016 2:21:49 GMT
In an effort to take this conversation in another direction:
I'd be interested to hear the creation myths everyone is using in their games currently. My current game kind of glossed over the creation myths, but our previous game had an interesting angle.
The last world we ran a campaign in was centered around dragons. The world the characters lived on was a moon of a gas giant. The moon was created in the aftermath of a great war between dragons. I took the Tiamat/Bahamut dichotomy and added my own spin on it. Tiamat represented the cosmic forces of chaos; quantum forces. Bahamut represented the cosmic forces of order; gravity and relativity. They waged a great war across the stars, creating their own followers out of the stuff floating around the void. In the final battle, Bahamut and his followers sacrificed their own life energy to imprison Tiamat and her most powerful followers in a prison of matter. In other words: Tiamat is the moon the PCs lived on. Several locations around the moon were magical prisons of the more powerful dragon generals. The least powerful dragons were made into the dragonborn. All the other races arose through nebulous magical hand waving; magic encouraging and mutating life around the moon.
The PCs were embroiled in large events centering around a cult of Dragonborn seeking to release the dragon generals and, ultimately, Tiamat. They believed they would be uplifted to their former dragon soldier status by doing so (as opposed to just encouraging the destruction of the world they live on).
What about your world?
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Post by robosnake on Jun 3, 2016 13:25:10 GMT
In the setting I'm working on now, I'm drawing on Islamic and Zoroastrian elements for some of it. This is my first shot at a creation story for the world - it is ruled by genies, but is also a monotheistic world. The deity is an It, and is venerated in different ways in different places (so that there is the variety we've talked about needing). Also, bear in mind, this is the creation story, not necessarily what actually happened...
When It Began…
In the beginning was the Light Eternal, the One and True, and from this Light there arose four sacred beings: Khashathra, the Righteous Power, whose body was the wind and sky; Haurvatat, the Peaceful and Perfect, whose body was the waters and sea; Spenta Armaiti, the Holy and Devoted, whose body was the earth, and Asha Vahishta, the Justice, whose body was fire. These four sacred beings, under the guidance of the True Light, came together to create a world between them. By their power, all that was, all that is, and all that ever will be was made.
But as the True Light shone on all that was, and is, and ever will be, it cast a shadow. In that shadow awakened ignorance, and malice, and hate; witchcraft and greed and disease; all things that contend with the Light and flee its presence. Thus the seed of death was in the birth of life; thus the Light gave rise to Dark.
Of the four elements, the body was born, and of the light and the dark, the soul was born. Body and soul, people arose - human beings in their vulnerability, most marked by light and darkness; qareen in their purity, shaped by the elements; and mephits in their trickery, given form by the places where the elements met and mingled.
At last, the Light Eternal, the One and the True, entered into the world that was made, so that Darkness would never overcome it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2016 22:58:03 GMT
friartook I understand wanting to steer clear of sensitive topics, but it doesn't seem like the discussion was veering into offensive territory. I just want to briefly weigh in and say that faith has multiple definitions. Using the definition of faith as belief in the existence of a thing without evidence is clearly not applicable when existence is already confirmed. That's creating a logical contradiction. I might as well say I don't believe shoes exist. Other definitions for faith still hold up in a setting with confirmed gods, so I'm still comfortable using the term in that context. It becomes more a synonym for trust than it is a scientific hypothesis for how the world works. That is, faith in a confirmed pantheon is not about their existence, but their behaviors. For a farmer to say, "I have faith Pelor will protect my village from the marauding undead," is functionally equivalent to me saying, "I have faith my parents will love me even if I muck things up a bit." As robosnake pointed out, blind faith isn't really a thing in a setting with confirmed gods. It's all evidence based faith. Pelor has a pretty good track record for combatting the undead, and my parents have a pretty good track record for loving me even when I mess up. There's no evidence that Pelor will protect against the next undead incursion, or that my parents will still love me if I clear out their bank account, but the farmer and I have faith that these agents in our lives will at least try to be consistent in their behaviors.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2016 23:08:19 GMT
As for the origin story of my homebrew, there are multiple religions, so multiple stories. I haven't hammered out the details there, but most of them agree that reality sprung into existence as an act of will by a supreme deity of creation, and that it will disappear as an act of will by a supreme deity of entropy. The differences between the religions are primarily in how they treat with the lesser gods. Some people believe the lesser gods have always existed, others believe the gods are the product of mortal consciousness. In both camps, there is an additional division between those who do and do not believe that gods interact directly with the material world. Explaining how divine magic works here is a bit beyond the scope of what I prefer to post. For those interested, check out the Magic Theory and Cosmology documents in my google drive homebrew folder ( link goes to thread with links) The true origin of this world is more in line with earth cosmology. Big bang and all that. Some religious origin stories get pretty close to this truth. The existence of magic (and specifically, the astral plane) is just a quirk of the universe. I attempt to explain how it works, but not why it works.
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Post by robosnake on Jun 5, 2016 13:30:53 GMT
Yeah, there's always the question of what creation and origin stories are out there, and then of what really happened. For historical things, I think it can be fun to play out a big historical event over the course of a session, maybe between chapters of the main campaign or as a one-shot type thing. For a creation story, sometimes I decide what actually happened but often I don't, and I just look at how the various groups would account for the world and what they think is important about it.
Creation stories and origin stories are also a big hint into the type of group you're dealing with. A nation founded in a great war is different from a nation founded by a group of merchant-princes signing a non-competition treaty. A cosmos created by killing and dismembering a giant is different from a cosmos created by angelic beings singing together.
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