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Post by friartook on May 6, 2016 15:27:18 GMT
Well, you mention the Scots, but not the Irish. There is a history of the Irish being a minority in the US. But that's really beside the point. You say your players are "into diversity". My players are "into messing with people". I think I made the situation worse. The first time his accent went off the rails was in the pronunciation of a name. An NPC one of the other players dubbed Carlisle. He had is character mispronounce this name in a cartoonish asian accent. My response was to have Carlisle be an "Asian analog ethnicity" (not unusual in the region they are in, so nothing special there) but speak perfectly unaccented "trade language" (English). Then, and here was my big mistake as the DM, I had the NPC call out the accent as racist. This was really funny at the moment, and led to an actual discussion of the difference between how this player was speaking before and the way he had just spoken. But it was a mistake in the larger context. My mistake was making the check in the form of a joke. Then making a big deal about it. This gave my players tacit permission to hammer on that particular nail just to mess with me. Because I was in on the joke, right? So now, its become a joke on me and continues because of my reaction to it. Like I said, 90% of his speech is fine in my book, but now he's hamming it up in particular moments, and I've been playing along to keep things light at the table. I just need to stop playing along and allow the joke to die. I am calling myself out here and checking myself. Nobody's perfect and I am big on being honest about these things. "Social justice shaming" is counter productive IMO, and that is what I am now looking to avoid at my table. I don't want to shut down the excellent game play I have been cultivating for years at our table over this. As to you saying you will "butt out" donosaur , please don't. There's no need. I value your opinion, and those of others. I think being a voice for social sensitivity in gaming circles is a very good thing, and sorely needed in the TTRPG community at large. So please don't feel like you need to "butt out" just because my solution is softer than you may agree with. |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 18:18:39 GMT
Donosaur, I appreciate your well thought out posts on this sensitive issue, and you've even changed my mind on a couple points... or rather, reminded me of things I already held to be true on an intellectual level, but have the luxury of forgetting in my daily life.
However, I feel like you're conflating racism and prejudice. Is distinguishing between the two another of my luxuries as a white male? Maybe. I suspect prejudice feels a lot like racism to people on the receiving end, but then murder and manslaughter feel about the same to a dead person, and our courts see fit to judge those crimes differently. I think intent counts for something.
By my understanding, racism ascribes a trait to a race that is inherently less than (sometimes greater; e.g. Asians are good at math) the racist's. Prejudice ascribes a trait without setting a higher or lower value, only proposes a difference.
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Post by friartook on May 6, 2016 18:43:08 GMT
However, I feel like you're conflating racism and prejudice. Is distinguishing between the two another of my luxuries as a white male? Maybe. I suspect prejudice feels a lot like racism to people on the receiving end, but then murder and manslaughter feel about the same to a dead person, and our courts see fit to judge those crimes differently. I think intent counts for something. By my understanding, racism ascribes a trait to a race that is inherently less than (sometimes greater; e.g. Asians are good at math) the racist's. Prejudice ascribes a trait without setting a higher or lower value, only proposes a difference. I am not a scholar of these issues by an means. But my current understanding of racism vs. prejudice is that racism is institutional, prejudice is individual. Anyone can hold prejudice, for any reason. But racism has more to do with societal structures and norms. Thus, a person of color may be prejudiced against white people, but they cannot be racist toward white people. Because white people are already in the seat of power due to institutional racism. That is my poorly worded and perhaps poorly understood take on racism vs. prejudice. White people benefit from institutional racism every day, much the same way people of color suffer the effects of institutional racism every day. This is what is meant by "white privilege". A white person has the luxury of ignoring racism or pretending its not an issue. So, a white person getting their laughs off of a caricature of a non-white person is racist. The white person has the privilege of seeing the humor, because the consequences of racism don't apply to them. Again, I am not the best source for this. This is just my understanding of the issue. And yes, I fully recognize that I just called myself, my player and my whole group racist. The fact is most white people are trained to be racist. Not overtly or with purpose (though that does happen), but simply by the norms of society. Recognizing this is the first step to healing. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 2:14:30 GMT
I hadn't really considered it from that perspective. Guess I need to check my privilege, as they say?
Honestly, I have learned something from these discussions, and I'm glad they haven't devolved into name calling like so many Internet discussions about race. Sorry if I've offended anyone.
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Post by donosaur on May 8, 2016 18:47:23 GMT
That's basically right, or at least that's the definition most people are operating with now. It's kind of unfortunate, because from a very literal pov you'd think racism = has to deal with race, which would make anti-white racism possible. But, given the entire history of our real world and the sort of academic definition of racism as prejudice x institutional power, anti-white racism isn't a thing. It's the same reason people deny that misandry is really a thing: sure, there are people who hate men and there are certain disadvantages to being a man, but overall? it's clearly historically the more privileged sex.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on May 9, 2016 14:45:33 GMT
I'll just throw my two cents in here (for whatever its worth). After living for 9 years in Southeast Asia, I will vouch that there is nothing wrong with this. I would probably go so far as to say, if there are stereotypes at the table, its fine. Stereotypes are not always bad. Sure, they may be incorrect, but it does not offend anybody by using them. When I lived in Asia, there were tons of stereotypes of white guys (more than we have of Asians) and the fact is, I just laughed, because stereotypes have some foundation in truth. Don't be worried about that stuff, just accept it for what it is.
Finally, A group of white guys sitting around the table is not any different than a group of girls or a diverse group of people sitting around a table. In the end, the goal does not change. When it comes to having a good time, and making a good story, it doesn't matter who you do it with, as long as you have a great time.
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Post by friartook on May 9, 2016 15:07:47 GMT
I am generally uncomfortable with either extreme; that this is 100% ok or 100% not ok.
I think this issue is problematic and complicated, which is why I am opting for a measured, subtle approach to mitigating the issue. I think its dangerous to narrow one's perspective on this issue as that can lead to a dismissive stance.
As to living in Asia and sterotypes about white people, I would ask: is there a history of white people being systemically oppressed in those cultures? Were white people rounded up and placed in internment camps due to their racial appearance? Because those things happen and have happened to those of Asian descent here in the US. The history and current climate of racial relations here in the US is the reason for the recent push for social sensitivity on racial issues. We need to compare apples to apples.
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Post by Samuel Wise on May 9, 2016 15:34:32 GMT
As to living in Asia and sterotypes about white people, I would ask: is there a history of white people being systemically oppressed in those cultures? Were white people rounded up and placed in internment camps due to their racial appearance? Because those things happen and have happened to those of Asian descent here in the US. The history and current climate of racial relations here in the US is the reason for the recent push for social sensitivity on racial issues. We need to compare apples to apples. Actually, there is. The History and climate of the US is nothing new. If anything, the US has a better history (just for the fact that it is so, so young). It is only the modern climate that views America's History worse than any other countries. I am not saying that America is the best (don't take that at all) just that every single country is flawed to its core. Trust me, I knew some Asians who still abuse Koreans. Knew a taxi driver who would drive Koreans to the middle of nowhere and drop them off, hoping that they would die. So, yes, I can easily say that there is History and climate just as bad as America, everywhere else in the world. |
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Post by friartook on May 9, 2016 15:48:41 GMT
Of course these issues happen world wide, and are complicated. This is where the issue gets a bit out of my ken. Racial issues in the US tend to focus on "white people, then everyone else". I've heard the question posed, "If racism is connected to social/systemic racism, can, for example, a Native American be 'racist' toward black people, or is that prejudice?" I do not know the answer there. However, I have two quibbles about your response Samuel Wise : First, in the US, there is an obvious gap between white people and pretty much everyone else. So, the discourse here centers on that divide. Second, I specifically was asking about Asian attitudes/history in regard to white people. I feel that, given this conversation is happening in a US-centric way, that this would be a more accurate way to compare. You spoke of being able to laugh off the "white stereotypes" thrown at you in Asia. I would argue that your ability to do so is tied to a lack of oppression. As white people are not systemically oppressed, we are able to laugh off stereotypes about us. Heck, Dave Chappelle makes fun of white people all the time and is incredibly popular. However, if a white person made as much fun of black people and culture as he does of whites, they would be in big trouble and would be viewed as racist. |
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Post by Samuel Wise on May 9, 2016 16:04:59 GMT
First, in the US, there is an obvious gap between white people and pretty much everyone else. So, the discourse here centers on that divide. Second, I specifically was asking about Asian attitudes/history in regard to white people. I feel that, given this conversation is happening in a US-centric way, that this would be a more accurate way to compare. You spoke of being able to laugh off the "white stereotypes" thrown at you in Asia. I would argue that your ability to do so is tied to a lack of oppression. As white people are not systemically oppressed, we are able to laugh off stereotypes about us. Heck, Dave Chappelle makes fun of white people all the time and is incredibly popular. However, if a white person made as much fun of black people and culture as he does of whites, they would be in big trouble and would be viewed as racist. 1: There is a huge difference between Koreans and Filipinos (I lived in the Philippines). Even there skin color is not the same, so I guess I do not understand what you mean by this (sorry). 2: It depends what you define as oppression. When I lived in the Philippines I would have Filipino friends who would by something for 100 pesos (around 2 dollars). When I went to the same vendor he would refuse to sell the same thing to me for under 500 pesos (10 dollars). Why? Because I was white. One could easily view this as oppression (this is what they did to blacks in the 1960's, anyway). Another example is my friend who is an Engineering genius (he is about 12 years old). Filipinos at his school would specifically target him because he was smart and white. The list can go on and on. Finally, other cultures can easily laugh it off as well. I have a friend who is Korean and, when she is stereotyped against, she just laughs and (most of the time) agrees with you. There are also many Asian youtubers who would assert the same mentality. All I am saying is that it is not just US centric, it is literally everywhere, and all of it is the same. I hope that this was, in some ways, helpful. All I can do is give my own experiences, I hope you can understand. |
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Post by friartook on May 9, 2016 16:20:58 GMT
Thanks for your perspective Samuel Wise. As I've previously said, I am not a scholar of these issues by any means at all. Not even the US perspective. All I can come back to is my reluctance to accept an absolute "this is OK" or "this is not OK" answer to this question. But, I came here with this issue to hear the perspectives and opinions of the Blockheads. So thanks for giving me yours! Quick question to you for context: Do you live in the US? I've gotten the impression that you perhaps don't. I've found that racial issues often mean something very different to folks who've lived and gown up in the US vs. other places around the world. |
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Post by Samuel Wise on May 9, 2016 16:40:25 GMT
Quick question to you for context: Do you live in the US? I've gotten the impression that you perhaps don't. I've found that racial issues often mean something very different to folks who've lived and gown up in the US vs. other places around the world. I lived in the Philippines until half a year ago (one of the reasons I have disappeared from the forums  ). I now live here in America, doing college work and such. But, yep, I spent nearly all of my life outside of the US. |
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Post by friartook on May 10, 2016 15:37:44 GMT
So, I record all my sessions for my own reference. I've been relistening in prep for tonight's session, and paying close attention to my player's accent after this convo.
Upon a second listen, the only piece of his "accent" that sounds even vaguely like an imitation or mockery of any real culture or accent is the replacing "L"s with "R"s. He is either doing his own made up accent, or such a bad imitation of a real accent that it may as well be a made up accent. I'm finding that I have less problem with his accent than I do my own jokes and reactions to it in the recording. An enlightening observation.
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Post by communistelk on May 21, 2016 22:30:07 GMT
I have been listening to this podcast for quite sometime and I finally made an account to respond to this thread.
First off, please don't listen to the white guy who (apparently) lived in S.E Asia for nine years' advice on how to not be racist. White expats like to think they are experts on Asian culture, they are not.
You cannot excuse Asia's history (or even current record) of prejudice and colorism to excuse an accent that is most often used to be hurtful.
Also, whoever brought up the Irish, a lot of Irish prejudice was rooted in anti-blackness and is always the first thing a lot of white people throw out in discussions on racism.
Your friend should not be using that accent. It is real and it doesn't exist in a vacuum. In our world it is something funny for white people to play with and something Asian people are mocked for.
I would feel uncomfortable at your table with that player. It doesn't matter if he himself is racist, but what he is doing IS.
Just because you're Asian and you say it doesn't bother you doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect a lot of other Asian people. I am Asian, and as I said, would not be comfortable with this at my table.
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Post by Samuel Wise on May 21, 2016 23:53:32 GMT
Please don't take what I said the wrong way. I am not claiming full knowledge of Asian culture, nor am I speaking for all Asians. I just gave a few anecdotes from my own experience... that I thought would be helpful. Also, I don't believe it is Racism to use an accent similar to other cultures (think about it, every accent we would be using at the table would be based on another culture's accent. We use... Irish? ... for Dwarf all the time). Racism is one race thinking itself higher then the other, or doing more for one culture than another. At most a fake accent could be considered rude, but not racist. Racism is a very serious problem. I do not mean this to be rude or patronizing either, I truly mean it  . To me, especially after growing up in another culture, I see using a Filipino accent (where I lived), a Russian accent, or a Chinese accent as all ok. Especially if you are not trying to be disrespectful. Hope you can see my points. |
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). I now live here in America, doing college work and such. But, yep, I spent nearly all of my life outside of the US.
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