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Post by friartook on May 5, 2016 16:01:31 GMT
I'm in the midst of a dilemma with one of my players.
In this campaign, everyone has heavily upped their RP game. Folks are using character voices and we've spent multiple sessions doing "fireside chats" and "get to know you" RP between the characters. Its been great on the whole, and everyone is loving it!
I have one player who is an anchor on this level. He stops out of character explanations and says, "Why don't you tell us in character?" When metagame discussions begin happening, he says, "Wait, lets RP this out!" He encouraged everyone to have a voice, has continually stopped me and reminded me of character/group building exercises I said I wanted to do then forgot. In short, he's become a DM support player.
But, there is an issue. We are playing a purposely non-eurocentric game. The world is more southeast asian in flavor. There is a culture that is based off the Persian empire of ancient world and the ethnicity of the people in their current area is vaguely Tibetan. This player has chosen to play a monk from a very remote monastery. He doesn't speak the Common Trade Language well, so he breaks up his speech and asks what words mean. All that is great! However, a couple times in our first couple sessions, he veered straight into a caricature of an asian accent. Pronouncing "L"s as "R"s, things like that. I called him on it both in game and out, but now its become a joke. He keeps doing it on purpose, and its really bothering me.
Part of my goal in creating a non-european fantasy setting was see what shook out as we played through it. What is shaking out is a racist accent, and I am not happy about it. However, his first reaction to my giving him a hard time about it was to say, "Well, never mind, not doing a voice anymore." He didn't follow through on that, and I'm glad. Like I said, he's become an anchor for our group's RP.
My question to you, oh Blockhead Hive Mind, is: How can I address this issue without stepping on his character's voice? Without discouraging his efforts to role play?
My only thought at this point is to tell him straight up, out of game, that the cartoonish bits of accent are bothering me. Then ask him if he'd feel comfortable making the accent if we had an asian player in our group.
I'd love your thoughts/feedback.
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Post by dmsam on May 5, 2016 17:59:51 GMT
Veering into uncomfortable territory is WHY we role-play! You could role-play slavery, war, murder, racism and all the darker aspects of life without ACTUALLY hurting someone. As DMs, we constantly challenge players to do things they are uncomfortable in doing either physically, mentally or emotionally. I would welcome the idea that my players offer the same challenges for me. Why is having a badly role-played Asian accent offensive, but elven racial slurs not? In the realm of role playing, neither Asians NOR elves are real! There is one reason that I would tell such a player to stop, and that's only if the quality of the role-play is affected. I am Asian, by the way.
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Post by joatmoniac on May 5, 2016 18:16:30 GMT
There is one reason that I would tell such a player to stop, and that's only if the quality of the role-play is affected. I feel like this is exactly what friartook explained is happening though. It sounds like it wasn't a thing from the outset of the character as simply the way that they speak. Instead the accent is utilized for humor, in an out of character manner. Leading me to the point I would emphasize more so than you personally being uncomfortable, but I would still state that, but instead the damage that the accent does for the immersive feel that the player strives for. The accent sounds like it would break the tension if there were some, or just pull the other players out of the moment occurring regardless of the emotion surrounding the moment. I do not even the task of telling the strongest RP player at the table aspects of their RP that you don't like, but it is a necessity to move forward based on the feelings you have already expressed here.
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Post by friartook on May 5, 2016 18:19:01 GMT
Veering into uncomfortable territory is WHY we-role play! You could role-play slavery, war, murder, racism and all the darker aspects of life without ACTUALLY hurting someone. As DMs, we constantly challenge players to do things they are uncomfortable in doing either physically, mentally or emotionally. I would welcome the idea that my players offer the same challenges for me. Why is having a badly role-played Asian accent offensive, but elven racial slurs not? In the realm of role playing, neither Asians NOR elves are real! There is one reason that I would tell such a player to stop, and that's only if the quality of the role-play is affected. I am Asian, by the way. Thanks for your perspective! Part of my sensitivity is that we are a "typical" D&D group: all white males between 20 and 40. I've also been questioning my own flagrant cultural appropriation. I took a cue from Lou Anders and allowed my cultures to be strongly influenced by existing real cultures and history. I agree with diving into uncomfortable territory and that is part of my goal with this story and campaign. Perhaps I'm just mad because it was me that was made uncomfortable rather than my players
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Post by friartook on May 5, 2016 18:29:05 GMT
joatmoniac: The tricky piece is that it has become a meta-joke. Something that is happening in the game that is funny outside the game. They are absolutely doing it to troll me too. I know my players, and I expect and anticipate that sort of thing. Them trolling me is not the piece I don't like. I'm doing an accent too, mine is vaguely Russian or Eastern European, but the character I am voicing is of the Imperial ethnicity, which is informed by the ancient Persian Empire and the middle east in general. Still, rather than doing a really bad Indian or Arabic accent, I chose to mangle a European accent because I'm more comfortable with that (and yes nerds, I know that Russia is technically part of Asia). This player's GF told me he actually went so far as to watch Youtube videos of acting instructors teaching how to do Asian accents. She said it was really uncomfortable, because ever single one of them was white and gave a lengthy caveat about how these accents are "not racist". As I write this, I'm realizing that I may also have been reacting to the fallout from the upcoming Ghost in the Shell film's casting. For now, I think I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie and just not react to the accent. I've been reacting to it too much and playing into the joke because of this. When I want my 2yo to stop putting his feet on the table, ignoring it works a lot better than making a big deal out of it and thus giving him the extra attention he is seeking. I'll give it a few more sessions and see how things shake out.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 0:20:51 GMT
Would you be satisfied if he did a perfectly accurate accent, or would it still feel weird on account of his whiteness? Just how inaccurate is it? I had this college professor from China who couldn't pronounce v's and r's very well. When he tried to explain a concept, he would excitedly say, "See, it's very very easy!" It sounded like "See, is weh-wee weh-wee easy!"
On The Daily Show on Comedy Central, there's a new correspondent named Ronny Chieng. He's Chinese American, and when I first heard him talk, I thought he was making fun of Americans who try to use Chinese accents... but it's actually the way he talks.
If your player is using the accent to demean Asian people, it's racist. If not, he's just lousy at accents.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 0:54:10 GMT
An addendum... I think all racists are ignorant, but not all people who are ignorant are racists. Your friend's accent was probably invented out of ignorance, not racism.
What is actually happening on a psychological level when a person tries to imitate an accent? There's probably some scientific literature on it, but my feeling is that a person picks out the most obvious deviations from "normal" speaking patterns. These deviations get mixed with normal speaking patterns to produce a hybrid that doesn't really sound like either parent.
Moreover, there's no such thing as an Asian accent except in our imaginations. When an American affects an Asian accent, it's probably a hybrid of a hybrid; first a mixture of the accents we are exposed to in popular culture, primarily Chinese and Japanese, then again when mixing it with "normal" speech.
How much time and thought have you given to different accents in your setting? Did the player know that different regions have different dialects? Or did you just tell the group, "this is southeast Asian themed," and leave it to their imaginations to fill in the blanks? If this is the case, you certainly can't blame him for inventing a hybrid accent, since southeast Asia has a variety of accents itself.
All the same, I think the solution you posited in your OP is fair. Definitely let him know it bothers you, and I think the question ("... if an Asian player were present") would state your case poignantly. However, I hope you'll take what I've said into consideration. Maybe he's hamming up the accent for laughs, but based on what you've written, it's not so obvious to me that he's trying to be demeaning.
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Post by friartook on May 6, 2016 3:19:41 GMT
@nevvur : He's not trying to be demeaning. He's actually putting a lot of effort into his character's voice and using the exaggerated accent to illustrate the fact that is character's upbringing was extremely sheltered and that he has trouble with the Trade Language that is my world's version of Common. He did research on how to do an "accurate" accent. He's been watching loads of Kung Fu films to prepare for his character. He has put in honest effort to make his character fleshed out and realistic.
I'm HAPPY about that level of effort and care. He's got genuinely good motives. And you make fair points regarding "Asian" accents and my lack of specificity on the cultures. I've had teachers who spoke like you describe as well. We had an economics prof in college who was Thai. His last name was about 6 syllables, but it started with a T. He said we could call him Mister T if we wanted, and I said, "But you need a big gold chain to go by Mr. T." He pulled a gold medallion at least three inches in diameter out of his shirt, held up gang signs and said, "Bring, bring." It was hilarious and he was an awesome teacher to boot!
However, I was out having some drinks with mutual friends (people who know this player and who I know as well). "The Accent" came up in conversation, and we delved into a conversation about minority and female representation in fantasy settings (only one of these folks was a gamer, so we painted in broad strokes). It was a group of 5 white folks and one black woman. At one point she kind of lifted her eyes to the ceiling and said, "This is the most ****ed up conversation about race between a bunch of white people I've heard since college!" I made a joke of it and put everyone at ease, but that reaction is telling and illustrates the dilemma I am having.
This is the nature of my dilemma: I fully intended to address issues of representation in my game, but our group is devoid of that very representation! I put us all in an inherently awkward predicament where these issues are concerned.
A few more notes here:
I fully recognize that I made this bed and now I have to lie in it. I set the setting up and made a big deal at character creation that everyone should think "non-euopean" when imagining their characters and backgrounds. He took this idea and ran with it.
I absolutely love a bunch of things that are happening in this campaign: The level of effort everyone is putting in on their character's voice and personality, the amount of thought that's gone in to backgrounds. The amount of RP that is going on. We went three sessions before a combat happened, and I only threw a combat in because we were missing a player and I needed a "side quest". I love their dedication and enthusiasm. I want to encourage and increase it!
I love that they are discussing things that happen in our games with non-gamers they know. They are bragging about how much fun they are having, relating stories from our games, telling their friends how cool it all is. That's a beautiful thing.
Here's where I am with it all: I think I have been making a mountain out of a mole hill. I think there are real concerns and I am glad those concerns got brought up. However, it is not up to me, a card carrying suburban white boy, to check everyone on racial issues. I am not going ask him to stop or change his character's voice. He's so close to a line of appropriateness, he just veers over it from time to time. I can't justify stepping on someone's character voice just because it occasionally skirts propriety behind closed doors in the company of friends. I'm going to stop making a big deal of it and go along with the characters.
I'm reminded of one of the early episodes of @godsfall. Phriane's introduction, in which Aram asks his female friend, who has never played an RPG, what she will be wearing to a ball. She calls him on the sexist trope and mentions the context of sexism and representation of women in RPGs, then proceeds to brush it off and enthusiastically describe her ball gown. Time to get over it and get back to the story.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 3:54:12 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. For my part, I'll admit to making a mountain of a molehill out of your molehill mountain. In hindsight, I think I do that a lot around here.
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Post by donosaur on May 6, 2016 4:05:14 GMT
"This is the most ****ed up conversation about race between a bunch of white people I've heard since college!" I concur with your friend. I'm going to go ahead and admit that I take a pretty hard line about these things. That being said, I don't think think people should do racial accents, because they are, by definition, racist. Maybe your friend has tried doing research to try and affect an accent based on an actual nationality and culture, but if it's coming off as as stereotypical china-man sounding accent, it's racist. It also doesn't change things if the stereotype actually is how some real life people sound, your friend should not do it. I sound really harsh, and I'm not here to yell at you or say you, or your friend, are bad people or anything. But your OP made it sound like you were looking for confirmation that your misgivings were valid, and I'm telling you they are. But, let me also try and be constructive and not a total buzzkill. You might be able to encourage your friend to explore alternate ways of getting his character's isolated upbringing across. Rather than accents, he could focus more on the speech patterns, and not just broken english, but different ways of expression. Is his character extremely blunt, or does he get lost in overwrought metaphors that only make sense to himself? Does he have speech tics? Does he repeat certain words, or put emphasis in unusual places? Does he constantly say one word when he needs another? In addition to being offensive, leaning on a stereotype for your character is also just not that imaginative. You create a character by playing them, and if he's cutting aspects of his character wholecloth from another culture, he's not creating, he's appropriating. If he decided that his character was just going to act, think, and sound exactly like say, John Wayne, and that's all he did, no matter how well he did it it would be boring after a while. In this case, his accent is not just lazy (creatively, if not performance-wise), it's also offensive.
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Post by donosaur on May 6, 2016 4:09:07 GMT
Oh, I'd also add that as a card carrying suburban white boy it is absolutely your place to check people who are crossing the line, because literally no one else in their lives may ever do it. Don't be afraid of being wrong, it's okay to follow your gut on this stuff.
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Post by friartook on May 6, 2016 4:25:33 GMT
But, let me also try and be constructive and not a total buzzkill. You might be able to encourage your friend to explore alternate ways of getting his character's isolated upbringing across. Rather than accents, he could focus more on the speech patterns, and not just broken english, but different ways of expression. Is his character extremely blunt, or does he get lost in overwrought metaphors that only make sense to himself? Does he have speech tics? Does he repeat certain words, or put emphasis in unusual places? Does he constantly say one word when he needs another? I'm glad you brought up all those ways he could illustrate his character's flavor. The fact is, 90% of the time he is doing what you outline, and his accent only sounds vaguely "Asian". It sounds more just like broken or confused English. He asks about word meanings and acts confused when conversations get too fast and wordy. He really is doing a great job of it. Its that 10% of the time when the voice dives off the deep end into Jerry Lewis caricature territory that I have an issue with. To be honest, I think the issue will disappear once I stop reacting to it. My players are trolls. They like to mess with eachother and with me. Its part of our group dynamic, and I don't have a problem with it in general. I'm going to give it a few sessions and see how it all goes. If it continues to be uncomfortable, or if it gets worse, we'll take a little break and discuss it.
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Post by friartook on May 6, 2016 4:29:56 GMT
Oh, I'd also add that as a card carrying suburban white boy it is absolutely your place to check people who are crossing the line, because literally no one else in their lives may ever do it. Don't be afraid of being wrong, it's okay to follow your gut on this stuff. This is a tricky space. I've been making a concerted effort in my life to do more listening and less speaking on issues of racism and sexism. How the "victims" (I don't like using that word in this context, but can't think of a better one) feel is more important than how I feel. I have the privilege of being a straight white male and can afford the luxury of thinking about these issues abstractly. I don't have to live it. Its important to listen to those who do, and not drown out their voices in the "white noise" (pun intended) of abstract philosophizing.
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Post by dmsam on May 6, 2016 5:58:02 GMT
As a non-native English speaking Chinese man, I can safely say that when role-playing a game full of murder, thievery and races with biological differences that set them echelons apart, it is unnecessarily restricting to consider the emotional well-being of people that are not actually a part of your game. Obviously, if a player is a rape victim, you will not role-play a rape scene. If a player was recently robbed at gun-point, you probably won't want to play out a heist with him. If there is a Chinese American at your table who speaks with an accent, it is likely unwise to act out his accent. But if we do not allow the possibility of role-playing darker, more controversial aspects of life in fear that someone, somewhere would be offended, then we need to re-examine why we role-play.
Role-playing a murdering barbarian does not make the player a murderer. Role-playing a womanizing rogue does not make the player a chauvinist pig. Role-laying a monk with an Asian accent does not make a player racist. Role-playing villains does not make the player evil.
Otherwise, all DMs are going to hell.
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Post by donosaur on May 6, 2016 13:27:31 GMT
Role-playing a murdering barbarian does not make the player a murderer. Role-playing a womanizing rogue does not make the player a chauvinist pig. Role-laying a monk with an Asian accent does not make a player racist. Role-playing villains does not make the player evil. Otherwise, all DMs are going to hell. *puts on social justice beret* I feel there's a difference, but I'm honestly not sure I can articulate it. I think it's that womanizing, murdering, and being evil are all behaviors, and are therefore on-the-table so to speak as far as things you can incorporate into RP. Affecting an accent is copying part of who someone is, taking it and using it for your entertainment, so it's more tricky. If the accent is historically offensive here in our own reality, it's even more fraught. We don't get too bent out of shape about Scottish dwarf accents because there isn't a real history of white American (are we all in America here? not sure) dudes oppressing Scots. There IS a history of racism and oppression of Chinese immigrants here, so it's an uglier thing altogether. See also, the All Villains are British trope. Some accents are fair play, some aren't, thems the breaks. I can't speak for other people, I guess I'm trying to just show how and why I draw the line. I have a group of players that's not really racially diverse at the moment, but runs the gamut of gender and sexual orientation and we're all pretty *into* diversity and cultural competence. We've checked each other at the table a couple times when one of our performances has strayed into stereotype or mean spirited-ness, and it doesn't derail the session at all. Our table still regularly gets into territory that's challenging without being offensive or mean. We all actively probe each others boundaries, and we back off when we overreach, instead of leaning into it like Friartook's player. Also, I really REALLY want to underline that I don't think the player is racist, but is doing something that comes across as racist. It's the actions, not the person. And my concern is that the things that happen behind closed doors (what a sordid way to refer to RPGs...) tend to work themselves out in public too. Getting a laugh for a problematic accent is encouraging, and someday it will probably get repeated in a different context. And consider this: if you leave the correcting to people who are offended by behavior that targets or mocks them personally, you're relying on a person who has just been stung to have to fight back directly the person who offended them. As a third party, it's within reason to say "hey pal, some people might find that offensive, please try to not do that anymore." It's up to the chemistry of your group though, and it sounds like you have a plan to see it through so I'll butt out.
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