Luckyday
Commoner
Posts: 4 
Favorite D&D Class: Bard
Favorite D&D Race: Halfling
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Post by Luckyday on Apr 14, 2016 1:22:23 GMT
Hi everyone, I just recently started playing pathfinder and DnD within the last 6 months. I love telling stories so when the opportunity to try my hand at DMing came up I took it. I also believe in just jumping right in and learning as I go. The person who asked me to DM is much more knowledgable than I am. I decided to try and even it out a bit by going with 5E because he didn't have any experience with it. Which he complained about because he had a character planned for pathfinder all the way to level 20, and I suspect minmax'd. Anyway, I always feel as though he is trying to pull something on me. He's confessed to me that he likes his nickname that his friends have for him, "Loki" because he "gets away with a lot of things through just talking people through it." He plays a warlock and I've caught him trying taking skills and spells that he doesn't meet the prerequisite for. Like trying to take pact of tome and putting find familiar in it and trying to take a pact of chain familiar, so trying to get two pact boons. Or trying to argue to get book of ancient secrets at level 2 warlock. He dominates during combat and doesn't really allow for other players to shine, the other 2, sometimes 3 players are all new and were excited about playing but seem to be getting bored now with combat. I feel like he may have a spell or two that he isn't suppose to have. Basically it's hard to trust that he is playing fair. I guess I just needed to find a place to rant and rave a bit. On the plus side, I am learning the rules and classes so much faster trying to stay ahead of him  Thank you guys for reading, Luckyday |
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Post by onyxangel24 on Apr 14, 2016 1:28:51 GMT
Personally, it sounds like he is trying to test you, if that makes sense. I first tried to run a Palladium Rifts game (another Tabletop RPG) and I soon dropped it because I kept getting tested by more experienced GM's then me (In that game they are called GM, but basically....) Then I started talking to my dad about me running a DND campaign, in which case I got tested in my knowledge a couple of times, and I even leaned on my dad when I made a mistake that was costly to the whole campaign, in the end it worked out. To me, it really sounds like he might be trying to test you. Only thing you have to remember is the rules are a guideline, as the DM its YOUR world even if it's laid out. If you dont want him to get those things then you need to tell him. Being new I could easily understand trying to stick close to the rules which all they are is a guideline, the DM could easily change them to what he/she wants them to be. At any cost, if you ever need rant & rave, feel free. This forum is full of a bunch of people both experienced & inexperienced...all are equally as helpful! Hope it works out with that player for ya
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Luckyday
Commoner
Posts: 4
Favorite D&D Class: Bard
Favorite D&D Race: Halfling
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Post by Luckyday on Apr 14, 2016 2:09:30 GMT
Thank you onyxangel  Yeah, for most of the game I try and use that rule of thumb of guidelines more than strict rules. However, since I don't know game balance well I do lean on the rules a bit more than probably a more experienced player/DM. And the more I feel like he's trying to get away with things the more I lean on the rules. For the other players I am pretty generous and treat things more like guidelines. I guess my concern is that the new players will lose interest because the experienced player is taking all the attention and fun. |
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Post by onyxangel24 on Apr 14, 2016 2:19:36 GMT
Yea, that can happen at times. But also if I were you, you could divide up the attention, I have seen someone mention before that if he gives 1 player a new weapon, he gives it to the other player. So, if you bend the rules for one player, maybe you could bend the rules a little for the others. I am still a new DM myself....My group actually takes turn, so my turn rolls back around in 3 more people, we have someone else in our group stepping up to the plate to run a campaign. I am still learning myself, but I even found out my dad who is a "seasoned" dm meaning very experienced as in he's been running DND for about 30 something years! He said he is still learning new things, sometimes I even point out things to him that he didn't know before! It is nice to be able to lean on someone. I really do hope it works out for you. This is definitely the place to go if you have questions, It was these forums that helped me figure out what a mess a campaign was that I wanted to run then decided to drop it, it was also this group that helped me break down the curse of strahd or rather give me an idea as I have an entire document of games that I would like to run....Lean on these forums! They will help you. In regards of your player...I would simply remind him that you are the DM this time around. You can also ask him somethign like "When your a DM, do you let your players do this stuff? (Repeat what he is doing)" and then when/if he says No, you can simply just be straight "Then why do you do it to me?" You might get through to him that way, its a passive way of making him think about what he is doing and maybe he will realize it is wrong what he is doing to you and that does make your job as DM a little harder. Like I said, he could literally be testing you to see how far he can push you and where your limits are. If he is, it's up to you to find a way to stop him.
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Post by onyxangel24 on Apr 14, 2016 2:20:21 GMT
Oh, and I am actually about to run my third campaign my next run! To give you an idea of how "new" I am.
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Post by swordnut on Apr 14, 2016 7:42:50 GMT
Physicality helps a lot. When you want your quieter players to shine a bit, turn towards them. This makes them feel you are paying close attention and are interested in what they have to say. It also turns you away from the dominant player and gives him the "shut up now" vibe without causing a confrontation.
Sternum pointed at person, shoulders square, head slightly to one side. Eye contact not terribly important, but smile or laugh in response to what they are saying. Let them finish sentences and respond with a positive comment. BE GENUINELY INTERESTED
If anyone tries to interrupt, don't turn your body and use as few words as possible if a response is required. If they are adding to what the person has started saying, ask them if that is ok by them.
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 14, 2016 14:24:57 GMT
Swordnut's advice is great. It will definitely help shift the spotlight to those who are not being as engaged as your more vocal player. My thing is that if the player is truly trying to embrace the Loki nickname you may need to get Thor on them as times. Blatant misuse/abuse of the rules through real life persuasion/deception checks is a no go. You can address it head on, and just talk with them, and if you do I would have the first conversation not at the table. If you want a more passive approach then you could leverage the fact that as a warlock the power they can is dependent on the connection with the demon they have a pact with. Oh, you made a second pact with demon B? Then demon A, and maybe B as well, is going to hunt you down and exact their revenge. Oh, you want to use spells you shouldn't be? Roll a hit dice and take that in damage because the demon needs more than you can freely give to bestow that power upon you. This is risky because it can become an arms race, but the players character would die before you run out of ideas I'm sure, haha. Hope some of that helps, and like Onyxangel said these forums are a great place to get ideas for anything and everything your dealing with in a game.
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Post by friartook on Apr 14, 2016 15:05:40 GMT
I agree with the spirit of joatmoniac 's advice. However, I'd recommend NOT starting an arms race with a munchkin. The one sentence I want to emphasize is: "Blatant misuse/abuse of the rules through real life persuasion/deception checks is a no go." Its possible this person is "testing" you. Its also possible they're f**king with you. In either case, my advice is a frank, honest talk at the table, with the group. Call it out. Make it a mediation session. Part of being a DM is being a moderator for the personalities at the table. This person, whether with malicious or benign intent, is taking advantage of your inexperience and THAT IS NOT OK! An experienced player should be a boon and an asset to a new DM, not a roadblock and source for concern. I recommend a frank conversation calling this out. If nothing changes, I recommend an ultimatum and the judicious use of the Ban Hammer. ...In case you can't tell, this issue pisses me off. I have players who try to metagame me and screw with me via the rules or just via their personalities. But I am an experienced GM. I introduced them to the hobby. I've got their number and I hold all the power at the table. So when they challenge my authority, I can push back. Players to screw with new GMs make my blood boil. The real life equivalent of internet trolls. Bullys. #teamCap |
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Post by dmsam on Apr 14, 2016 15:14:17 GMT
When in doubt, read the rules. Not at the table, but at your own time. Read the PHB and DMG cover to cover, more than once if needed. Study it like a textbook.
Once you have the rules firmly crystallized in your mind, the rest should fall in place easily.
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Luckyday
Commoner
Posts: 4
Favorite D&D Class: Bard
Favorite D&D Race: Halfling
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Post by Luckyday on Apr 14, 2016 18:37:10 GMT
Thank you everyone for the advice! I will try to be more aware of my body language and be sure to turn toward the other players more. I like that idea.
I had just started using the NPCs last session to directly talk to the other players to get them more involved. Last night I was talking to one of the other players to help her flush out her back story more so I can put that into a session soon to help bring her into the game more.
I wish I had time to review the text books in that much detail, it was one of the reasons the problem player was originally there to help me keep the game balanced and remind me of things I forgot.
I try to read the phb and DM guide a bit every week. Especially as I am designung the story and building encounters. I do have another friend who has years of experience helping me out but he lives on the east coast and I am wedt coast so our schedules don't always align.
I very much appreciate all the support! I was getting a smig discouraged by the experience but I am fired up again!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 4:32:28 GMT
I feel the same as Friartook in my esteem of abusive players, but I think dmsam's advice is more productive. I spent a lot of time mastering the rules when 5e debuted, and have been far-and-away the most knowledgeable person at every table I've played, both as a DM and player. When someone misinterprets a rule, I state the correct method and we move on. Whether the misinterpretation is intentional (i.e. cheating) doesn't matter. Spot correction, proceed.
All this is to say that I think system mastery is the best solution, and it sounds like you're already working toward that. Keep at it. We have a lot more power to change ourselves than we do other people.
Also, keep a copy of his character sheet. (all of them, really, but especially his!)
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Post by robosnake on Apr 16, 2016 14:37:32 GMT
Hi everyone, I just recently started playing pathfinder and DnD within the last 6 months. I love telling stories so when the opportunity to try my hand at DMing came up I took it. I also believe in just jumping right in and learning as I go. The person who asked me to DM is much more knowledgable than I am. I decided to try and even it out a bit by going with 5E because he didn't have any experience with it. Which he complained about because he had a character planned for pathfinder all the way to level 20, and I suspect minmax'd. Anyway, I always feel as though he is trying to pull something on me. He's confessed to me that he likes his nickname that his friends have for him, "Loki" because he "gets away with a lot of things through just talking people through it." He plays a warlock and I've caught him trying taking skills and spells that he doesn't meet the prerequisite for. Like trying to take pact of tome and putting find familiar in it and trying to take a pact of chain familiar, so trying to get two pact boons. Or trying to argue to get book of ancient secrets at level 2 warlock. He dominates during combat and doesn't really allow for other players to shine, the other 2, sometimes 3 players are all new and were excited about playing but seem to be getting bored now with combat. I feel like he may have a spell or two that he isn't suppose to have. Basically it's hard to trust that he is playing fair. I guess I just needed to find a place to rant and rave a bit. On the plus side, I am learning the rules and classes so much faster trying to stay ahead of him Thank you guys for reading, Luckyday I don't know about the rest of you guys, but this kind of thing really aggravates me. I mean, basically this player sounds like he is depending on his experience advantage to let him cheat (if he's that experienced, he knows quite well what a warlock gets and when). It might be best to take him aside and explain that you reserve the right to ret-con anything he does or comes up with, and make sure you spread the spotlight out among the other players. And if things get out of hand, I'd just continue ret-conning. If he feels free to try to cheat and manipulate you and the other players, then I think you as DM should feel free to take things away from him at any time. For the dominating combat, I would use a timer. Every player gets the same X amount of time to decide on actions, then you resolve them and move on. Personally, I'd be leaning toward asking this player to leave, since it sounds like you have other players who want to have fun playing with each other. Generally speaking, if a player is diminishing others' fun, I'd ask them to change their behavior or leave. But it all depends on what you're willing to play with, you know? Good luck! Not an easy situation. |
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Post by Vulash on Apr 21, 2016 14:16:37 GMT
I'm late to the party here, but I also agree with Friar. This doesn't sound like a test, or like the player doesn't realize what's happening. It sounds like he's using this group to fulfill a need of his own.
One way you can approach that first discussion is to frame it in such a way that you admit that you are still learning the rules, and things aren't going as smoothly as you'd like and discuss openly ways to fix it. I wouldn't outright point a finger in that discussion. I would, however, mention that it seems like not everyone is enjoying combat equally. Lean on his experience, and appeal to that. If it takes a 2nd discussion I wouldn't be as nice.
Also remember this phrase when rules lawyering starts:
I'll look that up and get clarification later, but to keep the game running right now I'm just going to make a call.
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Post by dmsam on Apr 30, 2016 5:54:17 GMT
By the way, just another tip to add. . .
A great way of learning the game and familiarizing yourself is playing the game. If you have free time (a rather scarce commodity for some), join up other groups as a player or be an observer of a live game. See how the DMs and the players interact in real time, and take note of the commonly addressed rules, the technical aspects, and the improvisations made around the table. As you do, take note of the aspects that you would like to emulate or improve on, and bring those into your own game a piece at a time. You'll be surprised at how quickly your learn, especially when you are in the middle of doing it.
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