dmdave
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Posts: 15 
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Minotaur
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Post by dmdave on Feb 19, 2016 19:02:05 GMT
I'm working on building a planet for my homebrew campaign and looking for some thoughts. To set the scene, the planet was besieged by forces of darkness who covered the planet to stage an assault. With the dark forces pending victory, the Elder God of Light sacrificed himself, empowering the Moon with his essence, created a second sun to pierce the shroud of darkness and allow defeat of the evil forces.
What I'm looking for is your thoughts of the effects this would have on the planet itself. I had initially envisioned a planet with two polar suns, perhaps creating a planet of weather extremes, deserts on the poles with an artic belt across the middle of the planet.
What sort of effect would this have on:
Planet's rotation
Weather across planet (deserts, arctic, etc)
Days/nights
Anything else you can think of
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Post by DM Windhover on Feb 19, 2016 20:46:38 GMT
Ok, a few quick thoughts.
First, if the moon literally became a sun, then the new sun, even if it was a tiny "moon-sized" sun which is I'm pretty sure physically impossible because of the mass necessary to sustain fusion, would be so close to the planet as to probably burn all life off it and leave it as a barren rock floating through the void.
If, on the other hand, the moon becoming a sun was in fact some kind of mythical story and we're we're talking about a binary star system, the known examples of that that exist in our world unfortunately wouldn't enable the "polar suns" vision you have. Binary systems which are stable generally involve two suns rotating each other at close range, with any and all planets in the system rotating BOTH suns, so they would be seen "rising" together as the planet rotated. I don't think a situation in which a planet lay between two suns could ever be physically possible--any astrophysicists on the forums are free to correct me, but I don't think any stable orbit would be possible in that gravitational situation.
BUT all that applies only if it really matters to you that this world you're creating follow the same physical laws as our universe. Maybe in your world, the suns really DO rotate around the earth rather than the other way around. In that case, go crazy! But from a scientific standpoint, it's going to be tricky to come up with answers to your specific questions because we're sort of creating an entirely new physical system.
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Post by dmsam on Feb 19, 2016 21:27:59 GMT
Turning a moon into a second sun, that's a fun thought. First, the moon would have to gain a bit of mass, which isn't a problem because E = mc 2 (E = Energy output of your elder god). Now to figure out how the two suns would have to orbit each other. To make everything easier, the new sun would orbit the old sun just like any planet or celestial mass would. Your world in this case would likely orbit around the new sun, rather than the old. If your elder god is considerate, he would probably move all three celestial objects in question a bit further away to avoid cooking everything. The planet's orbit would depend on how far away it is from the new sun and how big the new sun is. If the two suns exert the same gravitational force on your world, then it would go in a straight line in one direction forever. If you just treat the new sun as a planet and your world as a moon, things would look like this:   Assuming that the planet's axis did not change, this is what the day/night cycles would be: During summer (prior to the new sun), there will be 24 hours of day and no night for your planet. One sun would rise while the other sets. In addition, both northern and southern hemispheres would experience their respective summers at different intensities at the same time. During fall/spring (prior to the new sun), your planet would have 18 hours of day and 6 hours of night. This would likely be the coolest times of the year on average, except for the northern hemisphere. During winter (prior to the new sun), your planet would have 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night (on average). The southern hemisphere would enter into a second summer, while the northern hemisphere would enter true winter. As for climate effects, the whole planet would become warmer (not sure how much), the southern hemisphere would likely be much hotter than the north and experience two summers a year. It will probably have vast swathes of deserts. Whatever polar icecap it had would be added into your existing oceans, and the shorelines would be quite a lot higher in general. As for tides. . .not sure about that one. |
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Post by DM Windhover on Feb 19, 2016 22:02:41 GMT
To make everything easier, the new sun would orbit the old sun just like any planet or celestial mass would. Your world in this case would likely orbit around the new sun, rather than the old. If your elder god is considerate, he would probably move the moon quite a bit further away to avoid cooking everything. Well, if we're going to actually try to treat this according to real-world physics... Call the original sun Sun 1 and the moon-turned-Sun Sun 2. The new orbit of the planet around Sun 2 would be really significantly thrown off by the gravitational effects of Sun 1 on the planet. If a stable orbit were even possible (seems extremely unlikely) then it would be drawn heavily towards Sun 1 in that stage of its orbit. Making the orbit an ellipse which isn't actually centered on Sun 2, but rather on a point between the suns, but closer to Sun 2. This means that during part of its orbit, the planet is quite close to Sun 2, while at another part of its orbit, it is extremely far from Sun 2 and much closer than usual to the old sun, Sun 1. No axis angle will therefore be necessary to create extreme seasonal changes--the seasons will be determined largely by how close it is to the two suns.  If I'm right in the physics of this, then seasons will be therefore really strange. "Summer" will be the extremely hot time when the planet is closest to Sun 2. This will be followed by a long, cold season, followed by a brief warming as its proximity to the original sun begins to partially make up for its distance from Sun 2, followed by another long, cold season, followed by the return of summer. |
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Post by dmsam on Feb 19, 2016 22:15:30 GMT
Heh, as I was trying to figure out the orbits of the three objects in question, I ran into the crazy orbit issue too.
What if we just stretched everything out so that the orbits are less. . .dramatic?
Here is another idea. What if the new "sun" didn't operate on nuclear fusion? What if it is luminescent rather than incandescent? Would that work?
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Post by DM Windhover on Feb 19, 2016 22:41:38 GMT
I actually kind of love that. What is the new sun doesn't provide any heat, and this wasn't really a sun at all. Instead, it really is still just the moon, but has become a massive orb of pure divine radiance, and is the source of all radiant damage based spells? Edit: dmdave, sorry if we're running in a wacky direction with your post. Feel free to call us to heel. |
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dmdave
Commoner
Posts: 15
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Minotaur
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Post by dmdave on Feb 19, 2016 23:46:25 GMT
I'm loving where this is going. My mind was stalling on the orbit issues, which is why I wanted additional minds in the mix. I love the sound of pure luminescence, then it could really work for the actual manifestation as the elder god of light sacrifices his physical form to irradiate the moon. Additionally, couldn't see any pictures but the first on dmsam post. Would love to, because the day length and seasons are interesting to me. Keep running with the ideas! |
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Post by dmsam on Feb 20, 2016 3:10:15 GMT
A luminescent moon that is always full and can be clearly seen during the day. . .Those lycanthropes will have a blast!
Sorry about the pictures, I'll take another look in a bit.
If your second sun is just a super bright moon. The day/night cycles would be something like this:
New moon to 1st quarter (first 7.4 days of the lunar month) - The days will go from 12 hours to 18 hours long. The nights will go from 12 hours to 6 hours long. Sunrise and moonrise will go from together to about 6 hours apart, and the same with sunset to moonset. The sun and moon will be seen together from 12 hours a day to 6 hours a day.
1st quarter to full moon (day 7.4 to 14.8) - The days will go from 18 hours to 24 hours long. The nights will go from 6 to 0 hours long. Sunrise and moonrise will go from 6 hours apart to 12 hours apart, and same goes with sunset and moonset. The sun and moon will be seen together from 6 hours a day to 0 hours a day.
Full moon to 3rd quarter (day 14.8 to 22.2) - The days will go from 24 hours long to 18 hours long. The nights will go from 0 hours long to 6 hours long. Sunrise and moonrise will go from 12 hours apart to 6 hours apart. The sun and moon will be seen together from 0 hours a day to 6 hours a day.
3rd quarter to new moon (day 22.2 to 29.6) - The days will go from 18 hours long to 12 hours long. The nights will go from 8 hours long to 12 hours long. Sunrise and moonrise will go from 6 hours apart to being together. The sun and moon will be seen together from 6 hours a day to 12 hours a day.
I kind of feel bad for the nocturnal creatures. Sucks to be a vampire in your world (excuse the pun). On the other hand, your werewolves will run feral for 12 hours a day, every day! Depending on how many lyncanthropes are in your world, and how well they behave, the people may experience an epidemic of lyncanthropy, which is another story to be told. There will be minimal climate changes, although many of the fauna and flora will have to re-adjust. Half of the undead baddies will need to find somewhere safe to sleep for those long days ahead.
I can imagine a BBEG trying to snuff out this abomination of a second sun. Funny thing is, he won't be so bad or evil from his perspective either.
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dmdave
Commoner
Posts: 15
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Minotaur
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Post by dmdave on Feb 20, 2016 4:11:09 GMT
Very interesting, and thanks for this input. So, my primary world in my homebrew campaign is one that was struck by massive meteors, and eventually suffered melted polar caps, covering >90% of the land with the rising waters. The campaign itself is an underwater campaign. With your notes on flora and fauna, would a planet like this have any significant effects on aquatic and deep ocean life?
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Post by DM Windhover on Feb 20, 2016 4:37:57 GMT
Those are incredibly specific figures you're giving, dmsam. Are you making calculations based on our moon's cycle? Because it technically could rotate around the planet much more slowly than ours, for example--maybe leading to whole seasons in which one side of the planet is perpetually lit by the sun by day and the moon by night. Everything is going to depend on how fast that moon is orbiting the planet, and how fast the planet is orbiting the sun. We don't necessarily have to limit ourselves by assumptions of our own moon's orbit. I also don't know if this sort of stuff would actually have the effects on werewolves you describe. Depends on how you think about it, I guess, but I think the moon becoming an object of holy radiance would actually sort of put an end to lycanthropy for good. As for the underwater aspect, that adds an interesting twist. The additional light would presumably be usable by photosynthetic life forms, so you might end with massive algae and seaweed "forests" across much of the surface of the water. I'm not sure what other effects it would have--the light only penetrates so deep, so the deepest parts of the sea might not notice any difference whatsoever. P.S. Is the image on my post working now? I literally signed up for Imgur for the first time today in order to share that picture, so I'm new to the whole image hosting site business. |
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dmdave
Commoner
Posts: 15
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Minotaur
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Post by dmdave on Feb 20, 2016 4:44:29 GMT
I'm only seeing one picture in your post, of the templated orbit. One of Sam's posts I'd showing the same picture, with three empty boxes below it.
And I would suppose that in theory, their "night" when the moon is present would be as bright or brighter, but would not have the heat associated with the traditional sun, so they may determine day vs night by temperature.
I do like the idea of the seaweed forests as well.
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Post by DM Windhover on Feb 20, 2016 4:53:00 GMT
As long as you're seeing one picture on mine, that's good. Only posted the one, and I'm glad it's showing up.
Not that it matters now, if we're going with the luminous-moon version. The luminoon?
Edit: That name isn't intended to be serious, by the way... I have a thing for combining words in weird ways.
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Post by dmsam on Feb 20, 2016 5:01:12 GMT
Yes, those figures are based on our own lunar cycle. Of course you can change them at your own leisure! As for naming your new moon, I'd think it'll be the elder god of light's name.
If the spectra of light emitted from your luminescent moon is visible (think LED), then the light can be readily used for photosynthesis for most plants. Over time, this may even make other photosynthetic pigments besides chlorophyll more prominent in your plants, creating a very colorful set of flora. In addition, because of the increased amounts of sunlight, most of your plants would become effectively "evergreen", as they can continue to sustain photosynthesis for much longer periods of time (no more long winter nights). Leaves would likely have to adapt to temperatures for shedding rather than sunlight as well (such as shedding at first frost, etc).
As for fauna, the coloration would likely be selected for lighter pigments. Dark colors would make an animal stand out in their environments for most predators and prey. Camouflage and warning colors would become more advanced and complex over time to incorporate the pigmentation changes in the flora. As for the humanoids (drow really should be pale since the beginning, by the way), darker skin pigmentation might become common for protection against skin cancers, unless your moon does not emit UV (which is entirely possible, but then we'll have to get into the whole radiant damage issue).
As for marine life, photosynthetic algae may bloom in much higher frequency and population. Oxygen content in the atmosphere will rise significantly (probably as much as the Jurassic period), allowing animals with open circulatory systems to achieve greater sizes (more giant bugs, yay). Marine animals would likely grow in size, given the large amount of autotrophs available. In a few million years, megalodons and basiolsaurs might make a comeback!
These changes may take hundreds of thousands of years to take place. Pigmentation changes may be fastest, because most animals and plants already carry the genetic information needed to encode those pigments. The rest is mere speculation based on some of the available information about our own planet.
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dmdave
Commoner
Posts: 15
Favorite D&D Class: Monk
Favorite D&D Race: Minotaur
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Post by dmdave on Feb 20, 2016 5:11:51 GMT
I am loving every bit of this talk. You can both feel free to develop and take it in any direction you'd like.
On the luminescent note, I could see the light emitted as a blue radiance, giving a cooler feel to the illumination. Would additionally aid in the delineation between "night" and "day" as well
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Post by dmsam on Feb 20, 2016 5:52:50 GMT
Blue works well for photosynthesis, so no troubles there. As for the "night" and "day", I was just throwing out figures based on our own daylight cycles. Depending on where the moon is in the lunar cycle, you can get up to 12 hours of actual darkness (if both the sun and the moon rise and set at around the same time, such as around new moon).
As for other cultural changes that came to mind:
1. Windows would probably be smaller. Bedrooms might not have windows at all.
2. I can pretty much see people taking a vacation in the Underdark or underwater setting to get away from all the light! Sleep services would be highly valued (the sleep spell, or medications, etc).
3. Merfolk, sahuagins and merrow might actually develop a little more culture now they don't have to worry about food all the time. They still have to figure out how to write underwater (maybe some sort of tactile written language, similar to the mindflayers).
4. Gods of darkness, shadow and night might actually be associated with better attributes, such as rest, restoration, etc.
5. Depending on which take of lycanthropes you want, you may have an epidemic of lycanthopy followed by a war to eradicate them, or something similar.
6. Light sensitive creatures would retreat to the Underdark/underwater environments. Your vampires, ghouls, shadows and everything else might invade the dark-elves. Maybe the Underdark won't be a good vacation spot after all.
7. Necromancy spells such as Create Undead would be rather difficult for most days of the month.
8. The lunar cycle is so important that the lunar calendar will get more usage. Except it won't be called lunar, because your moon isn't Luna.
9. Darkness of any sort, especially the magical kind, would be very appreciated.
10. Treants get a little more active in shepherding their trees.
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