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Post by Vulash on Aug 27, 2015 13:21:10 GMT
As of 5th edition, paladin magic comes from their convictions. It's the reason they no longer need wisdom for spellcasting. The power resides within them, and their boons are not necessarily the providence of a deity (they can be, but not required). The 5e PHB even says as much, (The Cause of Righteousness) "...a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god." Replace justice with whatever philosophy the paladin upholds, in the case of non-traditional types. I'll second Nevvur's take on it, but then, that "Does a Paladin need to follow a deity?" question was mine I loved getting my take on D&D divinity both shut down and shouted out in the same episode! In the end, I agree with the assessment that Paladins are, for better or worse, defined by their affinity with a deity. However, I also agree that whatever a DM and his/her players want for a campaign is fair game! Oh, and I'm thinking a Paladin of the Holy Doorknob may make an NPC appearance some time in the future. LOL! That just made me think of a cool character concept. A fighter that thinks he's a paladin of something strange - not a deity. He doesn't actually have powers, but he does have the Lucky feat, and every time he uses "Lucky" he think's it is a divine interference on his behalf and it reinforces his belief in said non-deity.
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Post by lasersniper on Aug 27, 2015 16:50:18 GMT
Listening to this episode reminded me of an old concept I had for a section of a church.
The church and its deity are good, ideally lawful good and or pacifistic. However because of past troubles and persecutions to the deities followers he/she decides there is a need for defenders of the church that are not constrained to its morals. Thus the Souless are created. The Souless are devout Paladins of the deity, that are so selfless and obedient that the deity chooses them to make the ultimate sacrifice. They are to protect the church's followers and beliefs at any cost, even if you Paladin has to ignore those beliefs or tenants in the process, essentially giving up their souls. Even though the church knows of their purpose, they are rarely spoken about and are shunned and hated when seen. Though members of the church are never to harm or hinder a Souless. The Souless are still a Paladins technically and retains all their powers. Their deity just turns a blind eye to everything they do in accordance to their purpose.
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dmstevev
Commoner
Developing a new campaign for 5e
Posts: 9
Favorite D&D Class: Cleric or Wizard
Favorite D&D Race: Human
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Post by dmstevev on Sept 4, 2015 16:24:12 GMT
I found the oath of the ancients to be more appealing to me than the other two. I had an idea on how I wanted to play this type of character- fey knight or green knight type, but I wanted to see if others had delved into this and what their thoughts were and found these three different quotes over on Enworld which were very helpful in helping me define my character a lot more. " My take is that Ancients paladins are obviously kind, etc. but that's not good enough; they have to be the Light. They have to be a beacon. They should live life fully and delight and bring life, love, and happiness. They can live life large. They'll be the paladin to sing a great song in the inn, buy everyone a round of drinks (but not to excess), tell tales of beauty, dance, share jokes, and even indulge in a little romance and roll in the hay (life, love, happiness!) leaving their partner with a smile on their lips and a fond memory of a great night when they and all around them felt truly alive. A night when all were happy, when beauty, song, and love were all, and despair was vanquished. They breathe deep of the sweet air and smile, pause to watch the sunrise in all its glory (encouraging their allies to stop and savour it too) and clap their comrades on the backs with a broad grin and hopes for the day ahead. They are paladins you want to spend time with; they love life and beauty, they shine with it, they are often irrepressibly positive and good-natured, and whether brash and a little bombastic (ala Porthos of the Musketeers or Aquaman from Batman: The Brave and the Bold) or quieter and more relaxed, there's absolutely no mistaking their presence.""paladins who cast their lot in with the side of the light in the cosmic struggle against darkness because they love the beautiful and life-giving things of the world, not necessarily because they believe in principles of honor, courage, and justice. Those who take this oath are typically Neutral Good, putting the principles of good above concerns of law or chaos, and follow the tenants of Kindling the Light, Sheltering the Light, Preserving Their Own Light, and Being the Light.""Ancients: Pagan, Organic, Life-affirming outlook. Very open to things that are considered good, fun, natural. Not a lot of self denial. They indulge in all that is good, and defend all that is good. I'm picturing a pagan dark age, Celtic-ish champion. Flowers in the hair, music in his ear, maids on his lap, until it's time to smite monster that threatens the village."
This is definitely a very atypical paladin, since the typical paladin are mostly seen as the holy warrior type. As to whom or what they would worship, I could see them worshiping deities that had influence over any of the nature, life, light domains. I could also see them getting their power from the fey. Here's the link for the full discussion. www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?401529-roleplaying-the-Oath-of-the-Ancients
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Post by blakeryan on Mar 15, 2016 8:13:08 GMT
Here's my take on Paladins...
- Paladins - remember these are NOT catholic priests! Most of the D&D religions say nothing about not drinking, monogamy or not gambling. A Paladin can have a social drink to celebrate the parties win or the kings coronation.
Under Tenents of Devotion there is nothing to say 'thou shault not gamble on thy friends jousting tournament' or 'thou shalt not drink' Yes the Duty section mentions being responsible for their actions, but 1 social drink or 1 bet after weeks for treking/fighting evil is not negligence, people can join in things with their comrades without being the mr no-fun guy.
It is also the middle ages and they are Warriors, if a Paladin catches a thief for the fifth time, they may threaten them publicly and warn them not to do it again. Since they care about the persons soul however, they will probably visit them later and have a chat to suggest alternative life choices 'look pal I can keep throwing you in jail, but I think there are some more positive options out there', they might aswell use that charisma after all. They would probably pray to their deity for guidance.
= Oath of Ancients = (Neutral Good/Chaotic Good) These Paladins spend time helping those in need, they are active members of the community, when they get back from a quest they spend their time aiding the sick, teaching the children, encouraging art/music. When they go out to fight the dark forces of the world, its to protect the people they know and love, not some abstract ideal. - Robin Hood - breaking the law to protect and free innocents, enjoys art/music-this is what he fights to protect-life and freedom. So more emphasis on protector than legal enforcer. - Elven Paladin - between quests they dance or play music with people in the tavern, leads by example in enjoying life and sharing laughter. Has a drink to toast the parties success, but soon as people are getting angry/greedy/morbid because of too much gambling or alcohol, the Paladin leads them back to the light with conversion, music, dancing etc. - Three Muskeeters - Oliver Platts character, enjoyed a drink and carousing, but always trying different tactics and weapons, enjoyed life but still very dedicated to fighting oppression. - Warriors Three-Comrades of Thor in comics/movies, warriors but kinda bards aswell, definitely good guys. - and last but not least... Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They don't don't arrest people. They don't have social security cards. They fight evil and protect the innocents. They eat pizza.
= Oath of Vengeance = (Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil) - Very anti hero. Not a villain since their goal is good and their enemies are evil, but not a hero since they are usually ruthless and happy to use violence to extract information. - Characters - Angel (From Buffy the Vampire Slayer), Terminator (when he's helping John/Sarah Connor), The Punisher (Marval), Arrow (tv show-series 1), The Huntress (DC Comics).
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Post by dmskreed on Mar 15, 2016 20:57:37 GMT
I'm listening to this episode now and have a question/issue for the other DMs here... Its about Paladins and Ethics (In 5E if it matters).
A LG Paladin and a CN Half-Orc walk into a tavern...
How might a LG Paladin deal (in character) with having a CN character (emphasis on Chaotic) like the stereotypical Half Orc in the party?
I'm actually speaking as one of the players in this case (the paladin), but asking here because I want to role play this well. Basically, in our first session (starting Lv 1) it took less than 20 minutes for these two characters to be at each other's throats over an issue of theft and vandalism; paladin chastised half orc, half orc responded 'you gonna make me?' and it went from there.
And, naturally... the same chaotic impulses that lead to that altercation lead to the half orc wandering off on his own and walking into a monster's fist (nearly getting one-shotted) while everyone else was 2 rooms away exploring and looking for clues. Our party is a little unorthodox... I had the only healing ability in the group and used it to compensate for that character's foolishness.
I dont want to bog the game down while he thumps his chest and dares me to do something about it every time his does something my pally would object to (at a minimum).
I also dont want to run around pulling his butt out of the fire when he regularly puts himself (and the rest of us) at undue risk. My character would do that... but its is going to diminish my enjoyment or force me to more or less abandon role playing and just run my character as a mute avatar. I'd be reduced to playing his caddie... which is untenable.
The thing is... the half orc player is really just staying in character (I'd argue some of the stuff he does -- breaking windows and chairs for no purpose -- is pointless/senseless within the context of the game and slows things down unnecessarily. But it is "in character"). I'm considering changing my alignment and a few other things (deity) to give me a little more leeway (to ignore or let him suffer the consequences for his actions) in these situations... but I'd rather figure out how to make it work.
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Post by DM Mitch on Mar 16, 2016 4:02:46 GMT
So one thing you might want to try, if you are not already is leaning on the the paladin having a sense of mercy and understanding that his belief's are not the beliefs of the worlds. While he may hold himself to a very high ethical code, he realizes that code is not for everyone. In this sense, a paladin becomes more concerned with "am I doing what is right" rather than, "are they doing whats right." With this outlook, a paladin can lead by example, trying to show other's the moral way through his actions, rather than with his words.
I think the problem does lie in when the CN H-O or any other PC or NPC for that matter begins to break the law, or flat out harm the innocent in some fashion. I see a LG paladin as someone who would want to uphold the law, and protect others. If the CN H-O does these things, the paladin should stand up.
Keep in mind, tension between PCs can actually lead to great role-playing opportunities. There just needs to be an understanding between both players, and arguments should stay in character.
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Post by blakeryan on Mar 16, 2016 7:02:26 GMT
Re - A LG Paladin and a CN Half-Orc walk into a tavern...
Chaotic Neutral does not mean 'attention deficit dysorder'. They can go outside if nothing is interesting in the tavern. They can join in hobbies that allow them to have fun/cheat/be random like always joining in whatever the villagers play like football/soccer etc.
As players they can say Okay lets work out ways in character we can get along, we are all adults trying enjoy a shared story here.
In character - they can do regular things to create a bond, eg arm wrestles/first to finish their meal/running races/football at each new town.
Also the other players can help by pairing up, so the wizard hangs out with the paladin and the cleric hangs out with the Half Ork.
Re Paladin Behaviour - here's some ideas I had for things you can do to flesh out your Paladin...
- Fund a sage/visit libraries to research cures to diseases. Yes Clerics can cure them, but when they keep happening perhaps prevention is more practical. - Every dawn and dusk the Paladin washes his hands and face, and prays to their deity. - Treasure Hunt - every town the Paladin visits, he buys 5 trinkets, gets someone good with kids/the party rogue, to badly hide the trinkets, then tells the local kids to have a treasure hunt. Once they find them all, he tells them a tale from his adventures or from his religion. - After battle the paladin always prays to their deity, eg 'Pelor thank you for this victory and i pray to you so this person/creature before me can accept your wisdom and step on their new path' - Arena fights (re start of Rambo III) so the paladin enters the arena fights (where its legal) and gives half the winnings to the poor/the church. If he looses he prays to his god in thanks for the correction and opportunity to refocus his training. - Each town or each visit to town, he finds a hobo or street kid, offers to clean him up, then talks to crafsmen/traders to find one who is willing to take an apprentice, even if only for 3-6 months, and the paladin will get the person clean clothes/tools etc.
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Post by dmskreed on Mar 16, 2016 18:43:42 GMT
So one thing you might want to try, if you are not already is leaning on the the paladin having a sense of mercy and understanding that his belief's are not the beliefs of the worlds. While he may hold himself to a very high ethical code, he realizes that code is not for everyone. In this sense, a paladin becomes more concerned with "am I doing what is right" rather than, "are they doing whats right." With this outlook, a paladin can lead by example, trying to show other's the moral way through his actions, rather than with his words. I think the problem does lie in when the CN H-O or any other PC or NPC for that matter begins to break the law, or flat out harm the innocent in some fashion. I see a LG paladin as someone who would want to uphold the law, and protect others. If the CN H-O does these things, the paladin should stand up. Keep in mind, tension between PCs can actually lead to great role-playing opportunities. There just needs to be an understanding between both players, and arguments should stay in character. DM MITCH RESPONDED TO MY POST!! SQUEEEEEEE! Thanks for the suggestion... I was doing some reading on how people handle this kind of thing and noticed that 'lead by example' idea elsewhere as well. I see that as a likely starting point for any LG character. I will fight evil simply by being extra good! I just tend to doubt that would have an impact on the game the way I'd like it to unless I did it less passively (share my abilities disproportionately with those who seem worthy for example)... because otherwise I'm just the blowhard who puts honor before opportunism. Playing LG is a departure for me and not something I'm entirely comfortable doing (at least not yet). There are parts of it that seem/feel/are so self defeating. For example... I passed on some loot that was obviously intended for a Paladin or Cleric because, in the context of that adventure, it would be stealing from someone in need (the tavern owner)... basically undermining my moral/ethical high ground (ability to lead by example) and perhaps breaking my oath. As a DM, I might question a supposedly LG Paladin who took that loot (some spell scrolls) in that instance (though I doubt I'd disallow it)... and if they weren't taken, I might include them in the payment for helping the tavern owner once it was done. I might also reconsider where Paladin/Cleric treasure is hidden, but I really cant fault our DM for that. He didnt even know we'd have one of either class in the party before we all showed up. Anyway... digression over. Another character concept I saw and liked (and I think will feel more natural to play) is The Knight in Sour Armor... basically a less rigid/more cynical & fatalistic character who understands that evil exists/persists in the world, but has resigned himself to the fact that not all of it (lone vandal half orcs) rise to the level of something that needs to be acted against and defeated. I can/will still disapprove of that activity but it wont be as much of an imperative to stand in its way. Initially I was thinking I'd go Oath of Devotion because it fit the backstory I'd written before we sat down and introduced our characters. Now... I think Oath of Vengeance is going to be a better fit. I've retconned my deity from Torm to Tyr... who was something of a KiSA in the mythology.
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Post by halfacreoffun on Jun 7, 2016 23:58:33 GMT
I think that something people fail to this kind about when considering alignment of their paladins is, yes it says "a paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness." However their view of what is righteous and just and even what is "good" is a direct reflection of his faith and devotion to his God. If his God is CN and is a God of wine and celebration then this is good and righteous to the paladin. As an example... My goliath paladin, Dramalgo "Shinyshaper" Varnarol, was found left for dead and raised by a traveling gem merchant who was a retired cleric of Ilmater. He was raised with those ideals of what is good and righteous but when his "father" is murdered and Ilmater I'd silent he turns from those beliefs. Does Ilmater believe his father death was good and righteous? He is approached by the clergy of Hoar The Doombringer (LN). Now what is just and righteous in his eyes, and the eyes of the God granting him power, is vengeance and retribution.
What's important is that they are following their gods laws. Even the idea of Lawful meaning they follow the law of the land versus law of his God is silly to me. The law of the land is set by imperfect corruptable mortals where as the laws of his God are "perfect" in his eyes. That being said I like the idea of calling paladins with God's that fall into the evil block being called something else. Dark Knights, death Knights. However why would they lose the ability to heal? The healing may not come from the "light" though. Just because you are running an evil campaign doesn't mean the party members who are in some way invested in each other would not keep each other alive. Even an evil person understands they need others to accomplish a difficult task. It's their motivation that matters. I'm not healing you because I like you or care if you live I'm healing because I need this group to complete the task my God has set before me. On the other hand even evil people can feel companionship and love.
I just say justify your reasons for being a paladin following a certain god with your roll play and have the character do the best he can as a mortal to follow his gods laws.
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Post by blakeryan on Sept 29, 2016 4:34:16 GMT
there's an actual play podcast series called Crit Heads, one of the main characters is Chaotic Good, Paladin of a god of Art/Music/Revelry.
still a warrior, brave and defender of the people, but he is not a saint.
lots of in character conversations too, worth a listen.
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sneakyarrow
Commoner
Pathfinder is soooo much better than D&D.
Posts: 21
Favorite D&D Class: Sorcerer
Favorite D&D Race: Human
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Post by sneakyarrow on Dec 15, 2016 18:21:08 GMT
I played a NG (I believe) paladin of Shelyn (Pathfinder Goddess of Beauty, music, art, and love) and he was amazing to play. He would never trike the first blow, believed there was good and beauty in everything, and converted an entire clan of goblins to the way of Shelyn. Fun times.
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Post by meribson on Jun 23, 2017 0:27:34 GMT
A possible quote for an Oath of Vengeance paladin:
"If I kill you, my soul is damned to Hell...it is a price, I shall gladly pay."
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