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Post by friartook on Jul 7, 2015 16:40:37 GMT
theangrygm.com/ask-angry-traps-suck/A well thought out take on traps. This article expresses how I've felt about traps for a long time. I don't use them often in my dungeons/campaigns. When I used them in pre-made adventures, I was never happy with their role in the adventure. Thoughts?
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Jul 8, 2015 3:09:51 GMT
I try to keep them to places where I think they make a lot of sense, rather than just as random obstacles sprinkled around a dungeon. I try to make sure any traps I have are guarding something, even if that something isn't readily apparent at first. Of course that's all off if they're going through a kobold warren because kobolds would probably trap a bathroom stall just for the heckuva it.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jul 8, 2015 3:35:06 GMT
A well thought out take on traps. This article expresses how I've felt about traps for a long time. I don't use them often in my dungeons/campaigns. When I used them in pre-made adventures, I was never happy with their role in the adventure. Thoughts? Well, as a new (and inexperienced) Dungeon Master, the only reason I use traps was because everyone used them and that's something DMs do in D&D. This mindset lead to some pretty horrible traps that were half thought out, made on the spot, or just popped out from nowhere for no reason. This article made me want to pay a little more attention to traps in general. And made me recognize that I don't need to stick traps in every long hallway. |
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Post by joatmoniac on Jul 8, 2015 7:14:42 GMT
I have to say that traps for traps sake are rough on both the DM and the players. I like traps that lead to encounters. Essentially a good trap for me is something that ends up giving me a surprise round, because a 20 foot pit with spikes feels kinda lame. If that players dies what a crappy end for that guy, or I'm just softening them up a bit before a real fight, so why not spring a trap then fight? Drop a cage on them with a couple skeletons inside. Best case scenario the players outside have to try and fight through the bars as the poor guy inside gets attacked. Drop them into a pit that has spikes, sure, but there is an alcove with some sort of bad beastie there to start mauling the crap out of the player that fell.
So yeah, traps that are just traps aren't very fun, but good traps are needed, because what is D&D without traps!?
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Post by friartook on Jul 8, 2015 13:51:41 GMT
I've put in a few traps here and there, but not as many as it seems I should "traditionally". In pre-made adventures, its seems like there's a lot of traps, usually on doors or objects the PCs need to access (a safe, a treasure chest, etc.). In DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online, an MMO), there were traps EVERYWHERE, to the point that some dungeons couldn't be completed without a trap rogue and people would min-max these trapsmith builds that really couldn't do much else, but were highly prized. Some PUG groups wouldn't even allow your rogue in unless they were a trapsmith build (which was annoying).
I like to think of traps like this: Why would there be a trap, and if there is a trap, why wouldn't it be viciously deadly? So, the one trap my PCs have encountered in our campaign was a simple guillotine trap protecting a scepter. This trap could not be disarmed by any conceivable means. One of the players reached right into the alcove, failed his dex save, and got his arm chopped off above the elbow. Boom! That is how a trap should function; either it kills you, or sets off an alarm, or collapses a tunnel removing access to a needed area, something like that. If I was putting traps into my hidden inner sanctum (and, as the DM, I guess I am doing exactly that), I would have those traps guarding vital areas or objects. They would be deadly, otherwise, whats the point?
In the last pre-made adventure I ran (in 3.5) there were two major traps I can recall. One was an acid splash trap on a door, the other was a shocking grasp equivalent trap on a safe that needed to be accessed. Neither of these traps were deadly. They caused damage, and on repeated exposure could be deadly, but really they were just an annoyance. Why would anyone put such a trap in place? Its almost a, "Well, now that we've scared off the lightweights, you really smart and powerful adventurers can have at my hidden treasure."
I'm really happy with the 5e design decision to remove the Disable Device skill from the list. I feel like the traps were there just to make that skill useful.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jul 8, 2015 20:00:33 GMT
It makes me think about traps in terms of the ones in Home Alone vs the one that are in Saw. One set are comical and do little to nothing to deter the would be burglar, the other needs tons of thought and skill or you are dead. I can't envision how well it works mixing the two ideas together, or to even commit fully to one idea. Stinkin traps and their confusing nature/implementation!
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jul 8, 2015 20:10:54 GMT
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Post by friartook on Jul 8, 2015 20:27:49 GMT
It makes me think about traps in terms of the ones in Home Alone vs the one that are in Saw. One set are comical and do little to nothing to deter the would be burglar, the other needs tons of thought and skill or you are dead. I can't envision how well it works mixing the two ideas together, or to even commit fully to one idea. Stinkin traps and their confusing nature/implementation! I think there is room for the comical traps in the right kind of adventure. Suppose you need to raid the Tower of the Mitch, The Mad Mage. Mitch was a powerful wizard, but in his latter years he went crazy as a loon. He became a hermit and sealed himself within his tower. Over the years, he conducted crazy experiments and fill his tower with oddball traps and monsters that he thought would inhibit the forward motion of his enemies, but are really just ineffectual. Such as the magic door where, if you step through, causes you to release the contents of your bowels right then and there. Or the trapped chest containing robes which, when opened, releases a vast swarm of mosquitoes. Or the infamous Helm of the Imbecile, which reduces one's Int score to 2 while worn (people are often too dense to figure out that taking off the helm will cure their condition). I know that last one is a magic item, not a trap. But its still funny. On the other end of the spectrum, I recall hearing on a podcast somewhere of a magic trapped door. Unless you sense and disarm the trap, when you touch the door handle, you are turned into a pile of coins with your face on them. If all the coins are gathered and removed from the dungeon, you reform. But if any are missing or spent, you are lost forever. I liked that one  |
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Post by joatmoniac on Jul 8, 2015 23:49:04 GMT
On the other end of the spectrum, I recall hearing on a podcast somewhere of a magic trapped door. Unless you sense and disarm the trap, when you touch the door handle, you are turned into a pile of coins with your face on them. If all the coins are gathered and removed from the dungeon, you reform. But if any are missing or spent, you are lost forever. I liked that one The Mines of Madness! One of the earliest written modules for 5E. It was done by Scott Kurtz and someone else. Loved that module, never played it, but downloaded it and read through it. I do like the idea of Mad Mage Mitch terrorizing the people that come into his home after years and years of setting up inane traps. That made me think of the Winchester House and all of its randomness. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 23:57:54 GMT
Solid advice from Angry. Most important part IMO was to use them sparingly. Second most important part, telegraph the danger when you do use them.
I was seriously annoyed with my last group when we first began, because they were so paranoid about traps and other nasty surprises. I got the feeling they were used to a "Gotcha!" DM, and it took awhile to break them of the habit of meticulously describing their many many precautions. The group continued to annoy me in other ways so we no longer game together, but for the time it lasted, we at least got past that.
It's about filling the time spent gaming with meaningful content. Many traps do not feel meaningful, and much time spent in prevention of springing one quickly becomes a burden that slows down the narrative.
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Samuel Wise
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jul 9, 2015 0:05:13 GMT
I have really enjoyed the AngryGM articles I've read so far (thanks Friar!) He thinks like I do most of the time, but applies that mentality to GMing... which I don't. I should, but I am afraid it would be sort of hard to find players at that point. |
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Post by joatmoniac on Jul 9, 2015 1:56:56 GMT
Oh yeah, his shtick is pretty hilarious because it is the most extreme version of common frustratuons, but he has tons of great info. However, if that's how he acted at a table while running it there wouldn't be any players left after a very short amount of time, haha.
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Post by friartook on Jul 9, 2015 12:48:19 GMT
It's about filling the time spent gaming with meaningful content. Many traps do not feel meaningful, and much time spent in prevention of springing one quickly becomes a burden that slows down the narrative. And once again, Nevvur hits the nail on the head. I think some traps here and there are realistic. But there seems to be a tradition of just using them to scare the crap out of players (Tomb of Horrors anyone?). The idea of telegraphing traps is a good one. I think of the image in the 5e PHB in the traps chapter. It shows an alcove containing an mystic object. The alcove is ringed in spikes and has blood patches all over it. The wizard in the image is slowly and reluctantly reaching for the object. If you telegraph the traps, and your players still ignore them, then get fried...well, they've got the dice to roll a new PC. |
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Jul 9, 2015 14:43:13 GMT
I've got a couple of traps in one of the dungeon-y areas I've got waiting for my players. One of them in a semi-conventional "You beat the boss, here's his chest, don't just try to open it" rig but the other's a nice puzzle-ish gas chamber. It happens to have a few, ancient dead bodies in it because other people have tried to pass through the room but none of them would have been able to. I expect that the trap itself (at least the gas chamber) will be really easy for my players to get past, but having the corpses there tells them a lot more about the history of the place than the trap itself. Telegraphs can be handy. A slight tangent, but in a previous campaign the larger problem we'd had from the player's side was that our Rogue always forgot to look for traps. Not that there were tons of traps that were super deadly but if there was a trap he'd tend to just walk right into it. Eventually I made him this little card as a reminder and afterwards he would diligently check every door in a dungeon. It wasn't quite a telegraph in the same sense, but as a player in that party I found it pretty appreciable.  |
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Post by joatmoniac on Jul 9, 2015 18:46:40 GMT
But there seems to be a tradition of just using them to scare the crap out of players (Tomb of Horrors anyone?). If you only knew! That's all I'll say about that, but you will learn more SOON! I like idea of telegraphing a lot, and if the player's refuse to actively look into it, or botch their rolls then such is the way of things and the traps go off. Makes me think of the dead body in a room full of fungus. Sure he has a shiny sword, but is it worth it!? I love the measure you took for the Rogue that wouldn't check for traps, Tesla. I assume the other players would point to that card time and again to set him on the right path, haha. If he still doesn't check you could just start hitting him with the card too, haha. |
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