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Post by Tesla Ranger on Apr 17, 2016 14:28:11 GMT
In this video a couple of french historians (or perhaps their younger aides?) strapped in to some late medieval period armor to record how the armor was used in battle. I was pretty surprised by how much mobility is retained, though they're obviously slowed down a fair bit. Someone more practiced in well-fit armor might be a bit faster. The martial arts forms seem to be using that mass and narrow field of vision to their advantage. If nothing else it's enough to settle the old "could a knight get up after falling down?" question.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 19:05:49 GMT
Seen this before, though something I missed on the first watch that I caught this time... Notice during the ladder climb, there's only a loose fitting chain mesh on the guy's butt.
Point: a coup de grace against a prone opponent might be easier on le derriere. Don't know how often this happened historically, but why risk even a well aimed killing blow deflecting off plate when there's a softer target?
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Apr 18, 2016 5:14:41 GMT
I could be very wrong, but I would tend to assume that since the plate was so expensive the fellows wearing the plate wouldn't be the first ones up the ladder. After they've sent a few dozen farmers, and maybe a man-at-arms or three, up the ladder to secure it the Lord might deign to grace the rungs with his amplified weight. That said, anyone afforded an opportunity to strike at a plate-wearer's rump (probably including archers) would have an obvious target. This leads me to ponder how many poncy nobles have had their vain glorious battles cut short by an arrow in the arse.
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Post by robosnake on Apr 26, 2016 3:05:23 GMT
I think that this might be armor designed for mounted combat primarily - there's only so much steel you can sit on for any length of time. But it seems a lot of the old combat manuals for armored people (which are the best historical guides we have) were aimed at getting you off your feet, making it easier to find those vulnerable spots. For those interested in people trying to recreate historical European martial arts, this is one organization with a lot of chapters in various places: www.hemaalliance.com/ |
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Post by swordnut on Apr 26, 2016 7:28:53 GMT
I know this guy. Daniel Jaquet. He's swiss, and he is the academic, not an assistant :-) Ive done a few training sessions with him over the years. The armour is a german style, made for fighting on foot primarily. The gaps in the armour that are covered only by chain are there because of the limitations of steel and manufacturing techniques. Also to help riding a horse, which would still be your primary means of transport to/from combat. The chain armour bits are called "voiders". The art of armoured combat is to go for these weak spots, and indeed, getting your opponent on the floor   Although, the face is usually your best bet, there are techniques ending with a stab to the inner thigh from behind, as there is a nice juicy artery there. Attachments:
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Post by swordnut on Apr 26, 2016 7:43:16 GMT
most of the "facts" about armoured combat in common thought are derived from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs Court
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Post by swordnut on Apr 26, 2016 7:53:39 GMT
Here is a decent vid showing more combat. Far warning, John Claments is a controversial figure and often does things we in the rest of the HEMA community see as bat**** insane
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Post by robosnake on Apr 26, 2016 14:00:43 GMT
I know this guy. Daniel Jaquet. He's swiss, and he is the academic, not an assistant :-) Ive done a few training sessions with him over the years. The armour is a german style, made for fighting on foot primarily. The gaps in the armour that are covered only by chain are there because of the limitations of steel and manufacturing techniques. Also to help riding a horse, which would still be your primary means of transport to/from combat. The chain armour bits are called "voiders". The art of armoured combat is to go for these weak spots, and indeed, getting your opponent on the floor Although, the face is usually your best bet, there are techniques ending with a stab to the inner thigh from behind, as there is a nice juicy artery there. It seems like a common realization in ancient combat, especially one on one - I think of judo as similar, in that it developed for use between two armored opponents so that one can throw the other to the ground, making it a lot easier to kill them when their armor has kind of out-distanced their weapons (there aren't many ways for a katana to get through samurai armor, which is of course the point). It's one of those things that is historically true, but doesn't make it into RPGs that draw from history very often because it usually isn't exciting at the table. Grappling rules are famously hard to engage. |
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Post by swordnut on Apr 28, 2016 13:43:28 GMT
Challenge accepted! I can make grappling fun
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Post by robosnake on Apr 28, 2016 14:52:16 GMT
Challenge accepted! I can make grappling fun I published a game that I think does a good job of this, accounting for what's interesting about grappling, whether each person in the fight has a weapon in their hand, and I think it's relatively easy to engage with the rules. Only about a thousand people ever bought the thing, and I'm only aware of a few campaigns, but it is currently out of print. Hmm. I'm going to ask the publisher whether I can have the rights just revert back to me (if it's been out of print long enough, they do automatically, but I'm not sure exactly how long it's been). Anyway, it's a fun challenge for any designer, and one that many games, in my option, fall short of. Go for it! |
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Post by robosnake on Apr 28, 2016 15:09:28 GMT
The game had the added challenge of accounting for grappling in zero-gravity and low gravity, since it was a near-future game with a strong space element.
Actually, if anyone messages me with an email address, I can just share the PDF of the game with anyone who might be interested.
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Post by Tesla Ranger on May 3, 2016 15:36:19 GMT
I could see finely crafted heavy armor granting advantage for grappling. If nothing else it's an awful lot of mass to be hit with.
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Post by swordnut on May 3, 2016 21:26:30 GMT
I could see finely crafted heavy armor granting advantage for grappling. If nothing else it's an awful lot of mass to be hit with. Or maybe it locks out at certain points, making things like arm bars impossible? |
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Post by Tesla Ranger on May 4, 2016 15:04:11 GMT
While I have made some pieces of armor (mostly bracers, greaves, and gloves) it hasn't been a focus of mine. There are some leatherworkers who are effectively modern day armorers, cranking out bad arse stuff for SCA and the like. I would bet that if it were possible to build armor to prevent certain holds, those guys would know about it.
My hunch is that any such mechanism would inherently restrict the wearer's range of movement. If your arm physically can't reach your back then that would negate most arm holds. It also means you can't reach anything on your back. I suspect it would be a bit of a trade-off.
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