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Post by dmsam on Apr 3, 2016 7:29:17 GMT
Here's another tip for the mass combat. . . and general combat too. This came about because I was in a game last week where the GM threw 24 duergar at my group at the same time. The initiative alone took 10 minutes to figure out. Worst yet, I took out 20 of them with a fireball within the first round.
That's 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
When engaging your players with a large group of enemies, try not to control too many enemies at the same time. Consider your brain and your dice like the graphics card of a computer, a VERY OLD COMPUTER. Even the best mind in the world cannot handle 20 NPCs at the same time. Your game slows down. You make mistakes. You GLITCH.
Think about the old school hack and slashes, where they place you in a massive battlefield, and you annihilate legions of enemies. . .A HANDFUL AT A TIME. Yet, you feel like you were fighting an army, because there was never any pause. More enemies just "showed up". . .sometimes out of thin air to replace the ones you've killed. If the game designers were nice, there is also a "backdrop" of an fighting army somewhere in the distance to give you an illusion of mass combat.
You need to do the same thing. While the human brain is probably the most powerful graphics card in the known universe, it SUCKS at multitasking. When you add dice to that equation, the result is usually less than optimal.
5-6 tactically sound NPCs are always better than 20 that are not. By limiting the amount of NPCs on screen, you give your brain the much needed processing space for more valuable things, such as narration, tactics, group compositions, etc. At the end of the day, having 4 rounds of 5 goblins complete with archers and shaman still give you the same body-count, except both you and your players will appreciate the extra room to maneuver.
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Post by blakeryan on Apr 4, 2016 0:19:30 GMT
Agreed mass combat can be difficult.
I've been in games and heard podcasts where the DM has separate initiative for every combatant, and it's just slow and not fun.
Go with option A:iniative for big boss, and a separate number for ALL their minions, or option B: by type, so archers/harpies on one initiative, and infantry/trolls on another.
Also panic is contagious, most creatures with Int of 6+ will flee if half their group are wiped out in one hit, its pure survival instinct, at the very least do a will/wisdom save to see if they drop their gear and run for it. Some may whimper and beg for mercy, some may void their bowels, its not pretty but combat isn't.
Last night I had a bunch of githyanki attack the pcs, while their troll minions fought the pcs followers. I didn't even roll for the trolls vs the followers, the pcs did well and gave their followers some orders/tactics, so most of the trolls were defeated or ran for it. This allowed me to focus on the githyanki who were all throwing spells at the pcs. But this was easy to keep track off since I noted in advance Round 1-X vs Y, Round 2-Z vs Y etc.
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Post by dmsam on Apr 4, 2016 2:12:29 GMT
Waves. Love it. Use it.
Waves are often familiar to the gamer, especially the video gamer. However, in terms of D&D, waves can be an elegant tool that you can utilize in your combat scenarios. What is so beautiful about waves? Flexibility! It allows for "on the fly" adjustments. First wave was too easy? Too hard? No problem! Add or subtract a few monsters, adjust AC or hit points. Two of the party is dying already? Cancel that last wave if you want to keep the story alive!
By sending out your baddies in waves, it gives you the much needed time to "reconsider" situations without the need to hold back the actual punches. It'll allow you to monitor the party's morale, resources and make informed decisions based on what the players have done. Do you really mean to throw five gnolls at the party when the cleric is out of spells? Or would three be fine, as long as one is a Fang of Yeenoghu? Remember, once the baddies are on the field, you are playing to win (hats off to Angry). There is no going back, unless you want to suddenly infect your baddies with terrible decision making skills, which breaks immersion in itself.
If you don't like to kill players but want to create well balanced, tense, life-or-death scenarios, waves is something that you should try!
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Post by robosnake on Apr 5, 2016 0:51:00 GMT
Definitely think about why you are having a mass combat (I'm planning one for my next session so this is on my mind). Is it to make the PCs look baddass as they fight off wave after wave of lesser foes? Is it to make their way to an epic boss fight that saves the day when all seems lost? Do you have particular moments that you are wanting to set up, specific scenes? Is it about an awesome set-piece or location - fighting on a precipice, or in a huge skull of a fallen god, etc.?
Based on what you want from the mass combat, I'd treat it like any other encounter. A mass combat can easily be a lot like a dungeon - the PCs get funneled toward the bosses and specific encounters; maybe because they are too scary for a normal soldier to deal with, and their foes part before them like the Red Sea. Maybe you hand-wave the parts where they smash through lesser foes, and then focus on the scene you want to focus on.
What I'm planning is this - the PCs are leading a war-band of dwarves to rescue captives taken by a cult of death-worshiping dark elves. The PCs are kind of like an elite strike-team for the dwarven forces, allied with them but with their own agenda. The dark elves have three main leaders (modified from the MM) - a cleric, a necromancer and a warrior. They three of them don't clump together, and each has specific bodyguads and forces charged with protecting them.
Basically we'll ignore the dark elves and dwarves fighting each other, since none of them are a big challenge for 6th-7th level PCs. The players will choose which dark elf leader to focus on, and depending on how they do and how much danger they take on, the tide of battle will turn. (If they take it easy, the dwarves will get mowed down by powerful spells, etc.)
After each full round of battle, I have a random event table I'll have them roll on. It includes things like being hit with a volley of missile attacks, their foes being hit by a volley from the dwarves, panicked giant bats descending on them in the chaos, being hit with an errant faerie fire or darkness spell, etc.
During the lull between the main fights with the three different bosses, the PCs can make social rolls to bolster the dwarves or intimidate the dark elves, giving bonuses or imposing penalties for the next phase.
At the back of the chamber there is a precipice that descends all the way to Helheim, and I'm going to have draugr-style undead crawling up and over to join the fight the longer it goes (the campaign is strongly Norse-themed). That's also where the Glabrezu will come from, if the dark elf death-priestess successfully summons it that is (instead of the yochlol they can summon in the MM).
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Post by dmsam on Apr 5, 2016 1:10:22 GMT
I love that have a random event per round as well. Fireballs, arrows or a boulder from a trebuchet fly in every direction in the middle of a battle. Heck, an ally or enemy soldier falls out of formation at you. . .
As for why you want mass combat, it is usually to illustrate the scale of a conflict.
As for sending waves of enemies at your PCs, you can quickly crush their spirit if they are on the defensive, much like the battle of Helms Deep or Minas Tirith did. As resources get spent, you will see your players panic, in a good way.
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Post by donosaur on Apr 6, 2016 14:46:32 GMT
I would definitely want to implement a sort of modified Lair Action or Legendary Action concept for chaotic battlefields, or any encounter where the terrain or environment is a factor. Other editions probably have a term for this, but 5E is all I know.
Also, I feel like the GM described in the OP messed up. Aren't all monsters of the same type supposed to act on the same initiative count? Also, I think there are rules for mob fighting in the DMG, something along the lines of "if X enemies with Y attack bonus against a PC with Z AC, W attacks land, roll damage." I would crunch that math ahead of the encounter.
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Post by robosnake on Apr 8, 2016 14:36:24 GMT
I would definitely want to implement a sort of modified Lair Action or Legendary Action concept for chaotic battlefields, or any encounter where the terrain or environment is a factor. Other editions probably have a term for this, but 5E is all I know. Also, I feel like the GM described in the OP messed up. Aren't all monsters of the same type supposed to act on the same initiative count? Also, I think there are rules for mob fighting in the DMG, something along the lines of "if X enemies with Y attack bonus against a PC with Z AC, W attacks land, roll damage." I would crunch that math ahead of the encounter. In a game of BESM, which uses a 2d6 system, I crunched the math for the GM during a huge battle. I was playing a character with tons of armor who was hard to hit, and so I got their attack bonuses from him and then just came back and told him what percentage would hit. I could definitely see the same thing for D&D for, say, a horde of archers shooting at the PCs. But what I would do is turn this into an environmental hazard, I think. It's basically raining arrows, and in the midst of that arrow rain, here's a baddass fight! |
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