DM Tyler
Commoner
Posts: 4 
Favorite D&D Class: Druid / Bard
Favorite D&D Race: Half-Elf
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Post by DM Tyler on Feb 27, 2016 17:26:50 GMT
So I've never really bothered with having my players be very detailed about their equipment, material components, rations, etc. They don't like minutia, they like fun roleplay and bashing stuff over the head. Now that they're level 6 and starting to cast 3rd lvl spell slots, I'm seeing weaknesses in that approach. Certain spells are just too easy if you're only loosing spell slots. If you can cast anything from Cure Wounds to Restoration or Wish with no material, XP, or financial cost, it takes the rarity and mystery out of magic.
Knowing that my players won't likely enjoy shopping for materials or keeping track of their inventory for specific spells, do you have any ideas on how to make magic "cost" more?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 20:09:06 GMT
Consider using a generic material component with a cost. This is something I actually use in my homebrew setting which has met with approval across three different groups. Many of the details I'll discuss below are linked to the metaphysics of that world, so if you run with this idea, you may need to tweak it to suit your table.
All spells that require a material component use adross, which is essentially crystallized thought/willpower. Normal material components cannot be used at all. It's made by a simple ritual performed by any type of magic user (roughly 5 GP worth per day), though it's a mentally taxing process and is not meant to be done while exploring. It can also be purchased in appropriate locations and with the right connections (a large city with a magic academy yes, a backwater village no).
There are three types of adross in this setting: static, dynamic, and harmonic
Static: Used to create magical foci (arcane, divine, or druidic focus). This focus is used in lieu of any material component without a GP cost, as per standard PHB (5e) rules.
Dynamic: Used in spells with a material component cost expressed in GP, for which the material component is consumed. For example, Raise Dead uses 500 GP worth of adross. Reincarnate uses 1000 GP. With 2000 GP worth of adross, you could cast 4 Raise Dead, 2 Reincarnate, or 2 Raise Dead and 1 Reincarnate. It's "dynamic" because it isn't tied to any single spell. Dynamic adross is effectively currency in large towns and cties, with a value to weight approximately 100 x gold.
Harmonic: Used in spells with a material component cost expressed in GP, for which the material component is not consumed. Harmonic adross is made by taking the appropriate amount of dynamic adross (in GP) and spending the appropriate level spell slot on it (not actually casting the spell). The "material component" is then ready and permanent. For example, Programmed Illusion does not consume the 25 GP of jade dust in normal rules. To make harmonic adross for this spell, the caster acquires 25 GP of dynamic adross, and spends a level 6 spell slot on it. He would list on his inventory "Harmonic Adross - Programmed Illusion." This adross can only be used for that spell.
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Post by joatmoniac on Feb 29, 2016 8:28:17 GMT
The adross setup you have in world sounds awesome, and I am seriously considering adding it into my world. However, it is something the players would have to shop for and manage on a spell by spell basis at times. An even more simplified version of your idea might work? IF the player had across worth X amount of GP, then anything they want to happen that costs less than X can happen, but if not then they need to find more to add to it or a bigger better piece of adross.
The two other things I thought to play with are using levels of exhaustion if they go over X number of spell levels. It is lasting if they get a second level of exhaustion as only one level is removed per long rest. The other would be truly investing themselves into the large spells that they cast. If they have to spend his dice to cast a spell at their highest possible level that could work as well. So your 6th level wizard would need to roll a d6 for each of their three 3rd level spells they cast. You could play around with that to see if it is too much or too little. My ideas are by no means tested or balanced, but hopefully they spur and idea of how to create a good way to make spells cost more that your players are comfortable with.
The more I look at that adross idea the more I like it, and would give it a go first compared to my ideas. If your players still aren't on board then using one of mine should work out, but again would need some testing before I would think them good to go.
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Post by Vulash on Feb 29, 2016 14:21:33 GMT
I'm going to take a different approach and say that adding an extra cost is not necessary. In 5e as long as you have a "spell component pouch" you can cast most spells. I love that so you aren't having to buy every little piece for every spell - I agree with too much minutia. However, some spells have an added one. For example Chromatic Orb (1st level spell) requires a diamond worth X amount of GP. I do use those, but it's a one time fee.
My argument instead is going to be that the spells are fairly well balanced. Wish isn't what it used to be. 3rd level spells are great...situationally. Furthermore, your spellcaster has foregone HPs, potentially AC, and usefulness at physical skills in order to gain access to spells that help them be good at something else. They've also gone through levels 1-4 in which their spell does less damage than a hit from a sword of a well built barbarian and every intelligent creature targets their low HP, low AC self first. Then level 5 is the magical level when you get level 3 spells. It's fireball glory. However, fireball is really only useful against lots of minion type creatures. Also, it's based on an element - which many creatures have resistance too. If you listen to Critical Success he talks about having something in each session where every player can shine. So I would argue instead not to suddenly limit the new found power of your spellcasters that have been sitting in the background waiting for this moment, and instead manage things through encounter design. Throw in an extra group of minion type creatures for the wizard to blow up - but also mix in bigger things, or terrain, or fire resistance (I'm only using Fireball as an example). Wizard flying around too much? Bring in another caster just once that dispels him.... - don't overplay it, but make him cautious.
TLDR: I think 5e is balanced and your spellcasters are giving up a lot to get spells that can make them be the heros in specific encounters, but only sometimes - and I think that's great. I wouldn't add a restriction that further hampers a few classes and not the others.
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Post by Vulash on Feb 29, 2016 14:28:29 GMT
One more point: I think Nevvur's ideas is an amazing flavor. The difference is his players knew that when they made their characters, and yours wouldn't. One is a choice, and the other is a nerf. That's another reason I would hesitate to add that. I think you can solve all of your issues in game with design
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Post by dmsam on Feb 29, 2016 16:17:03 GMT
Hey I came across this the other day: A Writer’s Guide to Roleplaying: The Price of Magic, Part 1It may come in handy if you want your players to feel the price of magic, outside of gathering materials or paying gold. However, be careful with exhaustion because if you stick to the "3 encounters per adventuring day" rule . . . this can be devastating. On the other hand, if you run a RP heavy group, this might fit perfectly. |
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Post by joatmoniac on Feb 29, 2016 16:46:02 GMT
I'm going to take a different approach and say that adding an extra cost is not necessary. I could be totally off base, but I don't believe that DM Tyler is intending to add these ideas in addition to what is already in the rule book. From his post I think that he is currently running "with no material, XP, or financial cost." If the intent is to add something onto those then I certainly agree that it shouldn't be done because it would be too much. If it is to now start implementing thing because there is no cost then you could say that spells at the higher level take a lot out of the caster and that the exhaustion model is going to be used for all spells 3rd level or higher going forward. Also, that article you linked DM Sam explains where the seed for my idea was planted, haha. Silly ol umbralwalker sneaking ideas into my head that I then try and share with others, but don't even remember that it was him who planted the idea, haha. |
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Post by Vulash on Feb 29, 2016 17:05:12 GMT
I'm going to take a different approach and say that adding an extra cost is not necessary. I could be totally off base, but I don't believe that DM Tyler is intending to add these ideas in addition to what is already in the rule book. From his post I think that he is currently running "with no material, XP, or financial cost." If the intent is to add something onto those then I certainly agree that it shouldn't be done because it would be too much. If it is to now start implementing thing because there is no cost then you could say that spells at the higher level take a lot out of the caster and that the exhaustion model is going to be used for all spells 3rd level or higher going forward. Also, that article you linked DM Sam explains where the seed for my idea was planted, haha. Silly ol umbralwalker sneaking ideas into my head that I then try and share with others, but don't even remember that it was him who planted the idea, haha. The cost for most spells in 5e is nothing. Rituals, and the occasional useful spell (like chromatic orb), require something extra on top of just having a pouch, but it's not much of a balancing factor. Even to swap this out with something else would be a nerf to the spell casters in my opinion. I'm a wizard at heart, and if I'm being honest I don't think I'd want to play in a game where every other class was the same as the book, and the wizard suffered exhaustion or had some other cost for his highest level spells. I worked through levels as a weaker class to get to those. The balance has already shifted - in the past spell casters were nearly useless at low levels, and were the most powerful at higher levels. Now the other classes hold their own at higher levels (except the spell caster can still solve a wider variety of problems), and they've added more utility to spell casters at lower level so they aren't useless anymore, but the overall theme remains. I still maintain there is not a balance issue in 5e, even without worrying about spell components, and to retroactively add more cost to current players is going to upset them and take away from the enjoyment, and the only gain will be the perception of balance and an easier time creating puzzles/encounters for the DM. |
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Post by Vulash on Feb 29, 2016 17:10:12 GMT
I just reread the original post. If you're talking about the extra special spells like Wish and Restoration - I would just go by the 5e rules. It's really no longer a pain to do spell components. You only use them on those particular spells, and the rest you just assume it's all in the pouch.
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Post by Tesla Ranger on Mar 21, 2016 16:19:19 GMT
My approach as a DM has been to assume the PC always has the vast majority of spell components on hand. The only exception is spell components with a specified cost. I have the player expend the appropriate gp when they cast one of those spells (on the theory that the PC had bought the component previously). The balance of the spells is maintained and the wizard doesn't have to haul around a chest of expensive components just in case they happen to need to cast something. YMMV
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Post by lasersniper on Mar 30, 2016 16:33:42 GMT
Was reading through the post and had an idea. I will admit I usually just hand wave components, just because my groups are not to keen on keeping track of that stuff. I have trouble with them remembering what they were doing 5 minutes prior, which is a different problem.
Anyway my idea, what if you reward a player with a small boost in the spells power if they have to correct components. Something like +1 to damage or hit, another minute the spell is active, or a shorter casting time. Give them an incentive to collect and keep track of the small stuff. Obviously if you were buying priced components, the benefit would be greater then having a common component. Don't know what you guys think of that. This is defiantly an idea that was meant for my specific group, but thought I would throw it out there if anyone is interested.
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