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Post by dmzeke on Feb 23, 2016 1:52:48 GMT
I started a 3.5 game about a year ago, I've never played as a character but have been doing fairly well as a dm despite it .(at least according to my players) But the other day longshanks, a cleric/paladin asked if we were ever going to run into anymore undead (had to clear zombies in first couple games) I said it was possible. He then asked if I knew the rules for turn undead. I didn't, so I looked it up. Maybe I'm dim, but this seems overly complicated to me. Can someone explain this to me in a different way or does someone have a simpler house rule for it. I'd appreciate it, I don't like not having an answer for my players.
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Post by joatmoniac on Feb 23, 2016 6:21:25 GMT
Fear not! You are not dim as it is one of the most convoluted mechanics in the edition. It boils down to: Step 1: Roll a Charisma check (1d20+CHA) Step 2: Look up information on the Turning table Turning Check Result Most Powerful Undead Affected (Maximum Hit Dice) 0 or lower Cleric’s level -4 1—3 Cleric’s level -3 4—6 Cleric’s level -2 7—9 Cleric’s level -1 10—12 Cleric’s level 13—15 Cleric’s level +1 16—18 Cleric’s level +2 19—21 Cleric’s level +3 22 or higher Cleric’s level +4 Step 3: Roll 2d6 + effective turning level + Charisma modifier (to find number of HD you can affect) Step 4: You as the DM have to give a yes or no on whether certain creatures are able to be effected based on the answer from Step 2. However, this is a little odd because you are essentially giving some info on the creature that you might not want to. This step could technically happen right after Step 2 in the case where the undead are too strong or very weak. Step 5: Determine effect by picking targets to send fleeing for 10 rounds no less, to potentially never be seen or heard from again. As long as the cleric that did the turning doesn't approach then it is free hits on the undead during that time. Destroying them is another option if your level doubles their HD which again feels very metagame knowledge for players to have, but not a big deal in the end. An example of this craziness in action: My 4th level cleric with a 16 CHA (+3) wants to turn or destroy the skeletons and mummy in front of me. I roll a 7 on the d20, giving me a whopping 10 on the table. So I can turn any undead that has 4 or less HD, I could also destroy any undead that have 2 or less HD because I'm 4th level, not because of what I rolled on the table ... I then roll for step 3 - I get 7 on the 2d6 and add 4 for my level, and another 3 for my CHA giving me a total of 14 HD to spend on turning or destroying. I realize now how much more metagame knowledge spending that 14 HD is. If each skeleton has 3 HD then the DM could either tell me that outright or tell me that by having three run away. However, you get to choose your targets as the one turning undead, so I would need to know the HD of the mummy compared to the skeletons to make my choice ... wheeeeee! Ok, so there is all of that. Now on to not doing that, haha. There is a variant rule in the Complete Divine book where you deal 1d6 damage/ cleric level in a 30' radius. Will save (DC 10+ cleric level+ CHA modifier) for half damage. This certainly simplifies things a great deal, but the issue of "when will there be more undead?" remains. I would personally home brew in the Channel Energy from Pathfinder into your game. It takes the variant rule above, and also allows the player to use the Channel Energy to do a 30' radius heal for the same amount if they wanted to. You can check it out here www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric#TOC-Channel-Energy-Su-As you can see this is no fault of yours, and is just a very weirdly difficult mechanic in the game.
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Post by friartook on Feb 23, 2016 13:28:59 GMT
The turning rules in 3.5 were a hot mess. Similarly to the grappling rules, we just never used them because nobody could understand them. Joatmoniac's explanation is the best I've come by...and I still barely understand. At best, even if you can understand it, the rule feels excessively cumbersome. Any action that takes 5 steps and a metagame conversation with the DM is too much IMHO.
You could take a look at 5e turning. I don't recall the specifics, but I do recall the mechanics being much easier to understand.
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Post by DM Kiado on Feb 23, 2016 22:32:11 GMT
I often DM turning Undead without rules. I feel it is dependent on the god granting the power, and how they might use it. I don't recall there being the "Control Undead" option in the 5E rules for the evil side of Turn Undead (I could be wrong) but I would use that. The level and power of the cleric will decide what check to make, and what it's effect is. I think this is an area that can be played around with, and make for good story stuff.
Edit: I know I mention 5E, but this is the way I DM'ed 3.5 too long ago.
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Post by friartook on Feb 23, 2016 22:35:03 GMT
I don't recall there being the "Control Undead" option in the 5E rules for the evil side of Turn Undead (I could be wrong) but I would use that. I believe its in the DMG, under the Death Domain Cleric.
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Post by dmzeke on Feb 24, 2016 1:46:28 GMT
That explanation does help me to better understand, and I think be able to pass it on to my cleric at my game Saturday. I appreciate you taking your time to help me out.
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Post by janewalksfar on Feb 29, 2016 3:32:15 GMT
Step 4: You as the DM have to give a yes or no on whether certain creatures are able to be effected based on the answer from Step 2. However, this is a little odd because you are essentially giving some info on the creature that you might not want to. This step could technically happen right after Step 2 in the case where the undead are too strong or very weak. Step 5: Determine effect by picking targets to send fleeing for 10 rounds no less, to potentially never be seen or heard from again. As long as the cleric that did the turning doesn't approach then it is free hits on the undead during that time. Destroying them is another option if your level doubles their HD which again feels very metagame knowledge for players to have, but not a big deal in the end. Only one thing to add to joatmoniac's break-down:
"Range: You turn the closest turnable undead first and you can't turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or who have total cover" (PHB 159)
So you don't pick your targets. Rather the effects radiate out from you, turning the undead within range (IF their HD isn't higher than your turning check result) until your turning damage is "spent."
Saves SOME of the meta, but is still a mad-cumbersome rule. I was really pleased with the way they streamlined turning for 5e.
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