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Post by friartook on Jan 6, 2016 21:15:26 GMT
You know how everyone is always encouraging us, as DMs, to ask our players for worldbuilding input and ideas? To run with their creativity and leverage their crazy character ideas? I've been embracing that more and more lately...and recently had my limits tested.
I'm doing prep for a new campaign idea. Its a little out of the box; involves a lot of homebrew classes and races and some rather intense house rules. I decided I needed to make sure I had some player investment before I wasted the next 6 months or so on campaign prep only to find they don'd want to play the type of game I'm setting up. A big piece of what I want to do is create a compelling cooperative narrative environment, and record it. I want cool, crazy PC ideas and I want my players to be fully invested in their characters' stories. So I made a post in our FB group giving a brief outline of the campaign idea and asking for a yea or nay from everyone.
So far, only one player has responded. He's into the idea, and even had a character concept. But even as I push the boundaries of what players will tolerate from a DM, he pushes back at me by posting this character concept:
"What do you think of two twins playing as one for instance a women who is sneaky and knows her way around ppl (the face and organizer) and her twin brother who's a mute and a sort of dunce who's there for nothing but brute strength and to protect his sister they work together in a symbiotic relationship"
That's a direct quote btw. I asked if one player would play both PCs, he said that was his idea.
So here I am, eating my words and reaping what I've sown. This is an incredible and ambitious idea. The RP implications and possibilities alone are incredible. This is like a player being both Raistlin and Caramon. And therein lies my one concern: game balance. I need to figure out a way to make these two characters feel like one character mechanically. I have a feeling that in his head, they are different classes.
Here's the baseline of my current thinking:
For ability scores, I'll have him roll the standard 4d6 (drop the lowest) 7 times, then have him roll 2d6 7 more times. That will give us 14 scores, enough for two character sheets and a couple extras. As an added requirement, I'd make is so neither character can have more than 3 scores over 8 (reroll if not enough options). That should give a nice range, where one can be big, hearty and strong and the other can be small, frail, smart and quick.
To balance further balance the two characters, I'm considering a damage feedback mechanic wherein a give twin suffers half the damage (rounded down) that the other suffers. I think that will be enough to balance out the two different classes.
What say you Blockheads? Any advice/feedback/ideas/expressions of wonder most welcome!
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Samuel Wise
Demigod
Ready to Help...
Posts: 989
Favorite D&D Class: Warlock
Favorite D&D Race: Mousefolk
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Post by Samuel Wise on Jan 6, 2016 21:34:14 GMT
Wow, now that is an idea. Perhaps he would be fine playing one character at time and could flip between one character and another. To make this balance out, perhaps you could limit the two twins attribute points or make it so that he has to spread one characters attribute points among two characters. A few ideas, but I am not the best when it comes to game mechanics.
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Post by Vulash on Jan 7, 2016 14:38:52 GMT
I'm still brainstorming to see if I can come up with anything new, but I really like the ideas you have already. This is a tough one. My initial reaction is to guide them elsewhere because it could detract from the enjoyment of other players, but I like that your'e trying to come up with a clever solution in the efforts of sticking to your player input theme. If you can pull it off it could be fantastic. I'll keep thinking too!
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Post by friartook on Jan 7, 2016 14:49:37 GMT
I'm still brainstorming to see if I can come up with anything new, but I really like the ideas you have already. This is a tough one. My initial reaction is to guide them elsewhere because it could detract from the enjoyment of other players, but I like that your'e trying to come up with a clever solution in the efforts of sticking to your player input theme. If you can pull it off it could be fantastic. I'll keep thinking too! I definitely don't want to discourage him from this idea! Its an amazing and ambitious character concept. It sounds like he wants to make one the brawn and the other the "face". The brawny one will be dumb and possibly mute, so we won't get into the whole "he's having a conversation with himself" RP issue. I'm more worried about the pair being overpowered mechanically.
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Post by Vulash on Jan 7, 2016 16:02:17 GMT
So this may be railroading too much....but I think an awesome concept would be if the "brains" were either disabled in some way, or so weak that movement was terribly restricted. So perhaps he has rigged something up so the brawn can carry him/her around - similar to Bran and Hodor. The "brains" could still excel as a caster class, but the movement restriction would create a serious flaw, and the Brawns could still be a great melee class, but would have to take extra care to protect the twin, and also would have to spend time putting him/her down or locating that person near the beginning of a fight. Those draw backs should more than balance things and provide great RP. That might be too much, but just throwing ideas out
I still really like your ideas though. I think those are solid ways to handle it. If you do the linked damage, I might flesh it out even more and allow it to work in their favor for healing, and have some type of save in the event one goes unconscious or dies.
My other thought was a bit of a different approach, and that was if it was all mental somehow - like multiple personalities. Despite having a large body, the mental block is enough to cause it to be feeble when the brain personality is in control. I think this is a stretch though and would require quite a bit more thought on yours and the players part.
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Post by Vulash on Jan 7, 2016 16:08:04 GMT
I typed out a long backstory idea I had that was essentially the same soul in two bodies, but it was getting a bit crazy and not really the type of thing you were looking for. Basically though it was that twins were born, with a prophecy that one of them would "save the world" or some other trope. Someone cursed the child and the stronger twin died. In an effort to bring the child back to life to fullfill their destiny, the magic of the clergy conflicted with the curse, and the body was brought back but using part of the life energy/soul of the "weaker twin". Now the soul is split into two forms - but perhaps the prophecy was never for the perceived stronger one. There was more, but that's the main plot. Typed it, thought it was too wild, deleted it, then thought "what the hell that's what these forums are for!".
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Post by friartook on Jan 7, 2016 16:12:55 GMT
I thought of Bran and Hodor as well, and I like the idea of "the brains" being very frail. This player isn't much for casters (so far). I suspect his plan is a fighter or barbarian and a rogue.
I think I'm going to do something with leveling up/class progression as well. I'm thinking I'll allow him to start with each twin being level 1 in a certain class, but moving forward, only allow him to level up one class at a time as if he's multiclassing (which he is mechanically). That will keep the game balance in check compared with the other players; he won't have 3 levels of rogue and 3 levels of fighter to work with until level 5. It will also make him choose more carefully how he progresses based on what's happening in the story. I may even dictate that a certain class must be taken, because that twin was more active. Need to chew on that one though.
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Post by friartook on Jan 7, 2016 16:14:33 GMT
I typed out a long backstory idea I had that was essentially the same soul in two bodies, but it was getting a bit crazy and not really the type of thing you were looking for. Basically though it was that twins were born, with a prophecy that one of them would "save the world" or some other trope. Someone cursed the child and the stronger twin died. In an effort to bring the child back to life to fullfill their destiny, the magic of the clergy conflicted with the curse, and the body was brought back but using part of the life energy/soul of the "weaker twin". Now the soul is split into two forms - but perhaps the prophecy was never for the perceived stronger one. There was more, but that's the main plot. Typed it, thought it was too wild, deleted it, then thought "what the hell that's what these forums are for!". For sure! A cool idea! It wouldn't work for this world, which is a very low magic world. There is no healing magic at this time in history. Nobody to curse the children either.
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Post by Vulash on Jan 7, 2016 16:20:27 GMT
I typed out a long backstory idea I had that was essentially the same soul in two bodies, but it was getting a bit crazy and not really the type of thing you were looking for. Basically though it was that twins were born, with a prophecy that one of them would "save the world" or some other trope. Someone cursed the child and the stronger twin died. In an effort to bring the child back to life to fullfill their destiny, the magic of the clergy conflicted with the curse, and the body was brought back but using part of the life energy/soul of the "weaker twin". Now the soul is split into two forms - but perhaps the prophecy was never for the perceived stronger one. There was more, but that's the main plot. Typed it, thought it was too wild, deleted it, then thought "what the hell that's what these forums are for!". For sure! A cool idea! It wouldn't work for this world, which is a very low magic world. There is no healing magic at this time in history. Nobody to curse the children either. Oh that's cool. So it's essentially one multi-class character, it just happens to have the cool flavor of being two separate people. The only rough patch I see with that is the total HPs until death (not sure your system, or how you deal with death). The "frail" character could die very easily if he was essentially half the level of the party (so half the hit dice) and frail on top of it. Even the brute would be a lower HP "tank" than the party. I'm not sure if that even poses problems for your play style, but I'm sure there is a fix in there if so.
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Post by friartook on Jan 7, 2016 16:32:43 GMT
We use 5e and use the standard death rules. However, I will be adding in the Lasting Injuries optional rules and changing the rest mechanics. Short rests are still an hour, but do not heal any HP. Long rests are still 8 hours, but they only heal up to 1 hit die per level of HP. To balance this, I am allowing Medicine checks for characters proficient in the skill and/or use of a Healer's Kit to heal 1 hit die worth of HP. This decision is based on this campaign's emphasis on story over combat and on just how easy it is to stay alive in 5e RAW.
For this player's total HP, I will allow each twin to have their own HP. So collectively, they'll have more than the rest of the party. This should be balanced out by the HP feedback mechanic I posted above (each twin takes half of the damage the other takes) and the fact that the frailer of the pair is likely to have low Con.
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Post by Vulash on Jan 7, 2016 17:02:35 GMT
We use 5e and use the standard death rules. However, I will be adding in the Lasting Injuries optional rules and changing the rest mechanics. Short rests are still an hour, but do not heal any HP. Long rests are still 8 hours, but they only heal up to 1 hit die per level of HP. To balance this, I am allowing Medicine checks for characters proficient in the skill and/or use of a Healer's Kit to heal 1 hit die worth of HP. This decision is based on this campaign's emphasis on story over combat and on just how easy it is to stay alive in 5e RAW. For this player's total HP, I will allow each twin to have their own HP. So collectively, they'll have more than the rest of the party. This should be balanced out by the HP feedback mechanic I posted above (each twin takes half of the damage the other takes) and the fact that the frailer of the pair is likely to have low Con. Perfect! I actually misread the feedback mechanic earlier. I thought one twin would take the full damage and the other would take half - add on top of that lower HP for each and death seemed very near. I'm also finding that it's a bit too easy to stay alive in 5e. My current campaign is a bit higher magic and less gritty than your sounds, so a bit of that is okay, but I haven't had anyone come near death. Luckily, several of the players aren't as big into mechanics and so they don't know that. When one of them goes unconscious during a fight (which has only happened a couple of times! I'm not a cruel DM!) they immediately seem to think they're dead or near dead - which is great. The reality is with 5e rules they've got plenty of time, and allies that make it to them quickly. I would actually really really love to run a lower magic, grittier setting, but given my current groups styles and our limited play time I don't think it would work as well. I'm also pretty limited on planning time. Let us know how this plays out! It's a fascinating idea and I think you've come up with a really fun way to handle it. I can't wait to hear the outcome.
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Post by friartook on Jan 7, 2016 17:11:24 GMT
I thought one twin would take the full damage and the other would take half - add on top of that lower HP for each and death seemed very near. This is exactly what I meant. But likely only one of them will have low HP. The other may even have high HP. For example, if one is a fighter with 16 Con, the other a rogue with a 6 Con, at first level that's still one with 13 Hp and the other with 6 Hp. Collectively, that's 19 Hp on a what is supposed to be the equivalent of a first level PC. As they level up, this will balance out if I do the multiclass hack I mentioned above. But that actually brings up a good question: If only one twin levels up, does the other twin's HP stay stagnant for that level? Interesting. I think so. I don't want to make this too harsh for my player, but I do want to maintain a certain pressure on the twin dynamic.
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Post by Vulash on Jan 7, 2016 17:25:32 GMT
I thought one twin would take the full damage and the other would take half - add on top of that lower HP for each and death seemed very near. This is exactly what I meant. But likely only one of them will have low HP. The other may even have high HP. For example, if one is a fighter with 16 Con, the other a rogue with a 6 Con, at first level that's still one with 13 Hp and the other with 6 Hp. Collectively, that's 19 Hp on a what is supposed to be the equivalent of a first level PC. As they level up, this will balance out if I do the multiclass hack I mentioned above. But that actually brings up a good question: If only one twin levels up, does the other twin's HP stay stagnant for that level? Interesting. I think so. I don't want to make this too harsh for my player, but I do want to maintain a certain pressure on the twin dynamic. Ah, that was what I was trying to say but wasn't clear. For example: If your party is level 4, and your player has kept the levels even between the twins you'd have: A level 2 Rogue A level 2 fighter. Assuming average HPs and a +2 con modifier for the fighter, and a -2 for the Rogue each would have: Rogue: 8 + 5 - 4 = 9 HP Fighter: 10 + 6 + 4 = 20 HP One of each hit dice type for the other players would be: Rogue (assuming 0 con mod): 8 + 5 + 5 +5 = 23 HP Fighter (assuming +2 con mod): 10 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 8 = 36 HP Wizard (assuming 0 con mod): 6 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 18 HP I think I got the base hit dice right for each of those - I still have 2nd and 3rd editions ingrained in my head. So that would put each of the twins at a significant disadvantage on total HP (that gap becomes larger as they level compared to other players) before the feedback mechanism. I still love the idea, I'm just working through the numbers and looking for anything that might cause a hangup before you actually start running Also, if they each start at level 1, and then you go with 1 level per - I guess technically when the party is 4 they'd be 2 and 3. Same issue but it would take a few extra levels for the gap to develop.
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Post by DM Kiado on Jan 7, 2016 18:18:57 GMT
I will be interested to hear how this goes Friar, interesting concept. My only concern for you, is over-complicating the idea. When I was younger we played two characters all the time, mainly because we wanted a bigger party and there weren't enough people. Usually the way we played this was a main, and a companion like character. We did this because we knew we didn't want to focus trying to RP both characters. Obviously this makes things cheap as well, because I guarantee you my "companion" would die long before my main character. So I think the shared HP's idea, is a good way to make sure one isn't a throw away meat shield. Punishing the player for using their "brother" as such.
Maybe you have them more mechanically combined. Look at the Fighter "Leader" sub-class (that's not the name but it's escaping me at the moment) where you have like Commanders Strike. This basically lets the Fighter give an attack action to another player in place of his action. The idea being they are a leader of sorts, and directing the battle as they see fit. Mechanically you are giving up your own action to let someone else perform another.
What if you took that kind of idea instead of putting it all in hit points. The disadvantage being that the brute one has use one of the others actions to act right. So lets see if I can think of an example. Lets say one is a Rogue, and on is a brute ass warrior. At the start of the fight, the Rogue will have to use an one of their actions to get the warrior engaged, now once they are engaged on the target, they will work to finish them. Then the actions of the Rogue are fully theirs while the other is engaged. They are forced to spend their actions to utilize this extra power in combat. In my mind this would still put limits on them. If the fighter finishes his target off, he is going to stand around dumbfounded until the Rogue spends one of her actions to direct him to his next target, or pick something up, or whatever. We can assume the warrior will always defend itself, but will need that input to take profound and needed actions. That's a high level idea, but something could come of it I would think. Then your mechanics are pretty straight forward. The advantage of the brute is lessened through actions.
Just some other way to consider doing it, besides HP tricks and trying a multi-class method (all bad ass ideas by the way, this is just perspective) that may complicate matters more. Just some food for thought.
Edit: When I re-read this, I see MMORPG pet. Useful, but you have to manage them or they just stand there.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jan 7, 2016 20:25:01 GMT
I want to start by saying this is super cool, and you are awesome for wanting to figure this out for your player. However, this will be a tough road to balance out, haha. Ideas time!
From a mechanical perspective the biggest issue is the action economy that the player would be allowed. In most scenarios presented in this thread it is a Rogue/(Fighter or Barbarian) as examples. Even at level one as long as the Fight/Barb is within 5 ft of the enemy the Rogue is likely looking at 2d6+3 (sneak attack from nearby ally) for damage in a round, and if the Fight/Barb can attack as well then it is adding on 1d8 to 2d6 + STR as well. Even under the multi class method the ability to divide and conquer is a lot.
I do think that the multiclassing method is the closest to getting things to be balanced, but the actions available per round need to be addressed. Before that thoguh, I think that the HP of the twins works out in multiclassing as the base numbers should be looked at without CON mods involved as that will be dependent on player preference and stat scheme. Fighter with no CON is 28 and Barb with no CON is 33 at the standard stat progression for 4th level. The twins would be 29-32 depending on Fight/Barb choice, but that is also assuming that set HP at each level is used, but that should be the rough average, blah blah MATH! The other idea I thoguht of was to use the Druid animal companion as an example, and that is eluded to in DM Kiado's thoughts as well. However, that isn't really a thing in 5e, haha. I assume for the same action economy reasons that I brought up. The Ranger doesn't even have the option until level 3 where you get a CR 1/4 animal companion ... so yeah, not that helpful of an example.
I think that a certain set of actions available is the way to go, but at the same time that feels very limiting in certain scenarios or not limiting enough. If they are force into having only the standard set of actions then one is not attacking, or one isn't moving, or one can't react if an enemy were to run in between them, etc. What could help in combat might be to allow the Help action to be given in conjunction with the twins. Instead of each getting an attack on the enemy the person attacking gets the Help action (PHB pg 192) for free, and also looking at the Working Together (PHB pg 172) could help for ideas for out of combat synergy between the characters. I think a range restriction on how far they are apart they are could be interesting as well.
Also, after playing with your proposed stat scheme you will probably have to bump up the "neither character can have more than 3 scores over 8" given that the average roll of 2d6 is 7, and after doing three full sets of 4d6's and 2d6's I might have one that even has enough stats that low. That same set would also only have a high of 14 out of all the rolls. I honestly can't think of a good way to disperse the stats without it being overpowered in some way. Playing with the standard stat array falls apart when you have one twin good at a and b while the other can do a and c. A potential work around could be having the low stats rolled as 1d6+3 to allow for marginally lower stats, but this still makes that half of the twin set really poor at certain things obviously with a guaranteed -1 to -3 in half their stats. Then again if the pair is truly doing what one can and the other can't then I think it could potentially work out still.
So, all of that to say, it is definitely a hard road ahead in terms of balance, but I think it could be done. I don't know that it can be done from a purely academic/theoretical stance, but will likely need some play at the table before it could be ironed out well. So hopefully some of what I have typed is helpful!
P.S. One last random thought: you could potentially do a homebrew class as well to help the balance issue.
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