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Post by friartook on Dec 17, 2015 16:52:24 GMT
I am working on a new setting that requires a few homebrew class and race options. Below is a draft of a new Paladin oath. I'll have one more of these later on. I'd be grateful for any and all feedback on this oath. Specific advice I'm looking for: - You'll notice the Tenets of Justice are blank. I'd be happy for any suggestions for Tenets to include. That's mostly flavor, so I'm leaving it for last.
- Playabiliy; at this stage, does this look like an Oath that would interest you as a player? If not, why not?
- Mechanical Balance as compared to other Paladin Oaths.
Any and all other advice/feedback is most welcome and appreciated!Oath of JusticeTenets of Justice
Divine Justice is greater than any secular law. In a case where the laws of mortals undermine Divine Justice; the Divine must win out.
Divine Justice is impartial. Personal prejudices and morals have no place in the administration of Justice.
Divine Justice is a universal right and truth. The lowest beggar is as deserving of Justice as the greatest king.
Divine Justice is an end worthy of any means. Sometimes the Justicar must dirty their hands in the administration of Justice.
The Justicar must always strive to balance the scales of justice, work for the greatest good, stand against tyranny, and administer Divine Justice to the peoples of the world. Oath Spells Oath of devotion Spells 3rd: Command, Hunter's Mark 5th: Detect Thoughts, Hold Person 9th: Tongues, Slow 13th: Locate Creature, Compulsion 17th: Hold Monster, Scrying Channel Divinity (3rd lvl)
- Target of Justice: You may spend one use of Channel Divinity to choose one creature you can see as a Target of Justice. When you mark a Target of Justice, you have advantage on saving throws against attacks and spells by this creature and advantage on Survival and Investigation checks to track this creature. A creature is marked until it is slain or a new Target is chosen.
Zone of Truth; as an action, expend one use of Channel Divinity to cast the Zone of Truth spell. Charisma is your spell casting ability for this spell.
Sense Deception
- Starting at 7th level, you have become such a compelling judge of truth, that you can more easily see through the deceptions of others. You have advantage on all Insight checks to detect deception and on Perception checks to find hiding or sneaking creatures. Other creatures don't gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.
Aura of Truth
Starting at 15th level, you emanate a zone of truth 10 feet around you. This affect acts as the Zone of Truth spell. The spellcasting ability for this is Charisma. You and any allies within this Zone gain resistance to Enchantment spells.
Cage the Guilty- At 15th level, you are able to create a magic cage of force to hold the guilty in bondage for trial or to await sentencing. This cage acts as the Forcecage spell, your ability modifier for this spell is Charisma. You must finish a long rest before using this ability again.
Paragon of Justice Starting at 20th level, as an action, you may take the form of the Holy Judge. For 1 minute, you gain the following abilities:
- As a bonus action, you may compel one living, sentient creature that can see and hear you to answer one question. This creature is compelled to answer this question and to answer it truthfully.
- You gain True Seeing as if under the affects of the spell of the same name.
- You have advantage on all attacks against a marked Target of Justice.
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Post by friartook on Dec 18, 2015 18:29:38 GMT
Added some draft Tenets of Justice.
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Post by thugcorecowboy on Dec 18, 2015 20:04:38 GMT
I have to ask what you mean by divine justice because to me it means justice from a divine source(like what the gods of krynn did to the kingpriest for his arrogance) or is it more like he's judging people who are marked by what ever faith he's part of
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Post by friartook on Dec 18, 2015 20:20:25 GMT
I have to ask what you mean by divine justice because to me it means justice from a divine source(like what the gods of krynn did to the kingpriest for his arrogance) or is it more like he's judging people who are marked by what ever faith he's part of To answer your question succinctly: Divine Justice is the concept of pure, true justice as opposed to secular law or religious doctrine. So, lets zoom out a bit: This oath is meant to apply to an order of travelling barristers in the world I'm creating. These guys travel the country side and the mission of their order is to bring justice to all people. They operate independent of any central government or church, but their motives are religious. Their mission is to bring fair justice to all people and work always for the greatest good possible. The idea of Divine Justice, to them, means pure justice independent of the laws or morality of any given nation, government or church. When they first formed, the world was a series of fractured small nations and city-states. Many of them were at war with one another and they all worked under different systems of morality, law and government. The Order of Justicars formed to bring a "higher" or "purer" justice to all people. They primarily concentrate on the common folk. Some governments and noble houses welcomed them, other nations banned and exiled them. But they considered themselves above mortal law. The tales from these ancient times talk of them having supernatural sight and powers (reflected in many of the abilities of Oath above). In the current timeline, a great Empire has conquered 90% of the know civilized world. The Justicars have been banned and mostly wiped out; the dominant church went after them as heretics, and the Imperial government went after them as rebels because they refused to recognize the divine right of the Emperor to administer law. There are still pockets of Justicars, who travel in pairs and administer fair justice and work for the greater good in secret. But none of them have any magic or extrasensory powers (Divine and Arcane magic is all but legend in this timeline). Many of the common folk of the Empire love and respect them and will often respect the ruling of a Justicar over the ruling of the established Imperial bureaucracy (which is notoriously corrupt at the local level). This order is inspired by the Amyr from the Kingkiller Chronicle books by Patrick Rothfuss, and the Jedi of the Old Republic.
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Post by thugcorecowboy on Dec 18, 2015 21:33:03 GMT
i think the way he's set up is great And I can see some good plot hooks that could cast him as a big bad Especially with a neutral Ali letting him use both sides of paladins powers
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 23:49:44 GMT
I like the concept. Here's a more critical analysis:
Oath Spells: Looks good for the most part. I understand the intent behind choosing Tongues and Speak with Dead, but it feels kind of like doubling down on the investigation/interrogation flavor of the class, and 3rd level spells are a pretty big deal. I might replace one of those with Slow.
Channel Divinity: Paladins only ever get one use of Channel Divinity per short/long rest. You write in both abilities, "one use," which makes me wonder if you think paladins are supposed to get additional uses.
--Zone of Truth: You get this effect permanently at level 15, and while there's a lot of time between 3 and 15, it feels wasteful to double down like this. I would change this to a sort of Turn Undead that works against chaotic creatures. However, since that accounts for a larger number of creatures compared to the other oaths, I would impose a one-round limit. Turn Chaos: "As an action, you present your holy symbol and declare order, striking fear into the hearts of the lawless. Each creature of chaotic alignment that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned until the end of your next turn."
--Target of Justice: The language used presents some possible weirdness. The "captured" condition is one. What if the paladin is tracking a criminal, and the criminal heads into the wilderness to hide, where he is captured by bandits. The bandits decide they like him, and invite him to join their group. His capture would end the effect, but he has still escaped justice.
I would simply remove the captured condition. "The effect ends if the target is slain, or the paladin uses this ability on a different target." I would also add a time limit, possibly a number of hours or days equal to charisma modifier.
"choose one hostile creature" can be too widely interpreted. What if the creature is not actually hostile to the paladin, but still deserving of his justice? Can the paladin simply select anyone in the world who is hostile to him? What qualifies as hostile? I would change this ability to read, "The paladin chooses one creature he can see to mark as a target of justice."
Sense Deception: Resistance to sneak attack damage is weird, as its just weapon damage that "exploits a foe's distraction." I generally regard it more as opportunistic than deceptive. Instead, I would take the last bullet point from the Alert feat, "other creatures don't gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you."
Paragon of Justice: Looks good, but I would remove the disadvantage on saving throws part.
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Post by friartook on Dec 22, 2015 5:13:55 GMT
I like the concept. Here's a more critical analysis: Thanks so much for the analysis @nevvur! Your mechanical advice is always insightful and appreciated! I'll respond below. A lot of my issues with this draft have to do with the "doubling down". I'll take a second look at the third level spell options. Slow is a good suggestion given the flavor of what I'm going for. This is just confusing wording on my part. Thanks for calling it out for clarification. I agree with your critique here about doubling down. However, I have never been a fan of spells or abilities that are tied to alignment. I like to use alignment as flavor rather than a mechanic as much as possible (5e seems to encourage this). I'll chew on this one and see what I can come up with. My original wording was closer to your suggestion. I added in the "captured" condition to make the ability less tied to death. That wording was an attempt to encourage a non-killing resolution. I was trying to put a little distance between this oath and the Oath of Vengeance which feels really bloodthirsty to me. I'm attached to this flavor, but I agree that the wording on the condition is potentially confusing. Gonna have to chew on this one too. Agree with these 100%. Thanks again for your input/critique! Look out for an updated version soon.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 7:56:17 GMT
Believe me, I'm in total agreement with your take on alignment, and my suggestion came only after a failure to think up a better category of targets that would oppose a lawbringer, similarly to how Devotion paladins can affect fiends, and Ancients paladins can affect fey. I'll chew on this one as well, maybe one or both of us will have a better idea tomorrow.
Regarding removal of the captured condition, the nonlethal solution remains a character choice. More importantly, I should think a paladin of justice would want to keep his target marked even after he "captures" him (whatever that means, more on that in a second), just in case the target escapes before the paladin delivers him to the proper authority (assuming the paladin isn't acting as judge, jury, and executioner).
One of the bigger problems I have with using captured as an end condition is the same as using "a hostile creature" as a targeting condition. It's too vague. What constitutes being captured? Is a criminal captured when he surrenders? When the paladin puts him in manacles? When he's finally in prison? What if someone other than the paladin captures him? A mechanical effect needs a mechanical definition to work.
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Post by friartook on Dec 22, 2015 17:53:28 GMT
(assuming the paladin isn't acting as judge, jury, and executioner). Well, to be clear, these Paladins very well could and would act as Judge, Jury, and "Punisher". The whole idea here is that these Paladins consider themselves and the justice they seek to bring to the world above any earthly "authority" or law. They are charged to seek justice, work toward the greater good of the world, administer fair judgement and, when needed, punishment fitting the crime. This could include turning an individual over to more "official" authorities, but could also include taking their money and distributing it to injured parties, permanent personal mutilation, branding, reparations, and yes, execution in extreme cases. There is no "code" of law for this order. They consider truth and justice to be real and unassailable facts of the Divine world, but recognize that when a code of law is set down in the earthly realm, the code itself becomes the truth and justice (sort of an "idle worship" thing). Instead of memorizing a code of law, these Paladins are trained to think through moral and ethical conundrums and charged with finding the most just solution to them. The Paladin is sworn to administer fair justice, so they are not the type to go executing a thief. They would seek to punish the thief in a way appropriate for the level of their crime. Things can get complicated of course; what about the thief who steals bread to feed his family? The Paladin must not only seek justice, but also work for the greater good. A possible outcome of this may be that the Paladin would order the thief to repay their debt by working for the merchant they robbed, but also decree that once the debt is paid, the merchant must hire the thief on and pay a fair wage for labor. At the peak of this order's power, most common folk and many nobles were inclined to follow such judgements, because of the fact that these Paladins considered it within their right to summarily execute individuals if they judged it necessary. I could get into a whole back story thing here about their rise to power, their eventual corruption in power, and their downfall at the hands of the Imperial Constabulary, but I think that's a rant for another time.
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Post by friartook on Dec 31, 2015 16:19:13 GMT
Update:
I made some updates to this oath based on @nevvur 's suggestions. You'll notice, however, that the second bullet point under the 3rd level Channel Divinity ability is crossed out. I agree with nevvur that this one is redundant, but I am having a really hard time coming up with a replacement ability.
Here was nevvur's suggestion:
While I like what he's going for here, I am reluctant to create any abilities tied to alignment. I've never liked those type of abilities and don't want to create new ones to clutter up what I consider an already muddy moral landscape.
I would be most grateful for any suggestions. This is a 3rd level ability to be tied in with the Paladin's Channel Divinity. I like the idea of a Turning ability, but I need some criteria on which to base the Turning. Thanks in advance to the Blockhead Hive Mind!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 5:50:12 GMT
Another idea that comes to mind is to cast an effect similar to the Calm Emotions spell. It's also a level 2 spell, so on par with the Zone of Truth channel divinity you had originally planned, in terms of power level. Not sure how thematically appropriate you find it, but I could see a Justicar using it in various ways, such as convincing a combative criminal to surrender.
If all else fails, start poring over the spell descriptions for inspiration. Even higher level spells are worth a look to get some ideas.
edit: alternately, keep the zone of truth channel divinity, and change the level 15 ability to something else. As a much higher level feature, I think you have more flexibility to be creative without tipping the balance of power.
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Post by friartook on Jan 8, 2016 15:02:59 GMT
New update: I removed the standing Zone of Truth ability at 15th level and replaced it with the ability to cast Forcecage once per long rest. I feel this spell is powerful enough to work at that level and fits the flavor of the Oath.
As always, feedback appreciated. I feel like I'm pretty close to a final draft of this Oath. Any final polishing tips would be great!
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Post by DM Kiado on Jan 8, 2016 17:54:23 GMT
I like the updates Friar.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 6:11:15 GMT
friartook , just wanted to revisit this thread to ask if any of your players gave this archetype a try? It looks solid in its current form, BTW. I'd allow it in my own game if it appealed to any of my players, but none of them have expressed an interest in paladins (yet). In any case, I might build an NPC with PC character creation rules using this template to throw the party a curveball. Whether the NPC is a friend or foe depends on the party's actions.
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Post by friartook on Jul 6, 2016 6:15:08 GMT
No, none of them did. By all means! Use it and tell me how it plays at the table! I'd be grateful for a play test.
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