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Post by friartook on Jun 5, 2015 16:56:42 GMT
Last Monday we had a "level up" night for my group. Everyone is now level 5, and our rogue was really excited about the Uncanny Dodge ability. I was a bit confused, as I recall 3.5 Uncanny Dodge as being useful, but not anything especially exciting. Then I read the description:
"Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 5th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack's damage against you."
My first, gut reaction was to say, "Yeah, that's OP, we're gonna need to house rule that..." As I understand the 5e rules, this basically gives a rogue resistance to all standard attacks/damage, which feel overpowered at first glance. But I gave it a second thought and decided to make the final call before the next session. So, I am looking for opinions and specifics on the mechanics involved in this.
1. Is this over powered?
2. Talk to me about reactions. As I understand them, a player has a "reaction" action every round, but only certain things can be done as reactions. Am I wrong here? Is there a limit to the number of reactions a player has in a round? What if 5 enemies attack the rogue, each on their turn? Does he get a "reaction" to each attack?
3. If I do deem this overpowered, what do you think would be a proper way to "nerf" the ability?
4. Any other input or thoughts are appreciated.
After much thought, I'm leaning toward allowing the ability as it stands. I've been looking for ways to coax our rogue into melee combat (he uses his bow most of the time, and often never comes face-to-face with an enemy), and I think this sort of damage resistance would encourage melee combat. I'd still like to hear y'all's take though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 22:47:53 GMT
My advice, leave it alone.
You only ever get one action, one bonus action, and one reaction per round, unless an ability specifically states otherwise. There are a few abilities that grant additional actions (haste, action surge), but to the best of my knowledge, there is no way to gain an additional reaction. If your rogue gets attacked by multiple enemies, or even a single enemy with Multiattack, he has to choose which attack gets uncannily dodged. Further, each attack needs to be resolved discreetly and in order. The rogue does not get to fish for the highest damage attack to be reduced.
It also comes at the cost of using other reactions. He will not be able to make opportunity attacks that round, and if he spent his turn using a Ready Action, he must forfeit the Ready Action action (because the action turns into a trigger-activated reaction) in order to use Uncanny Dodge.
Uncanny Dodge cannot be used against saving throw effects. To be considered an attack, the effect must have an attack roll (debatable exception, Magic Missile). Spell attacks like scorching ray or chromatic orb are still subject to uncanny dodge. In addition 'secondary effects' of attacks remain unaffected by Uncanny Dodge damage reduction. Ex: a giant spider's poison bite, or a salamander's heated weapon. This last point is still openly debated.
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Post by friartook on Jun 6, 2015 0:27:42 GMT
Thanks nevvur, great advice as usual.
Just to make sure I understand fully: in the situation I outlined above, where the rogue is being attacked by 5 enemies, he would only be able to use UD on one attack by one enemy that round of initiative and may not take any other reactions. When initiative resets, he has one reaction to use. Correct?
If I understand that right, there's no balance issue, and I'll leave it alone for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 1:14:39 GMT
Yes and no. It's important to distinguish between "a round" and "the round."
"A round" is the time between a character's turns. "The round" is the time between the top of the initiative order and the bottom. This second definition is not actually used in any mechanics in the game, but is useful to keep in mind.
The distinction is important because a character's one reaction does not reset at the beginning of "the round." He only gets one reaction in "a round."
EX: Rogue, Fighter, Orc, Goblin with initiatives of 13, 10, 15 and 8 respectively.
Beginning of "The Round 1"
15. Orc hits rogue, rogue uses UD
13. Beginning of "A Round 1" for the rogue. Rogue reaction resets. Rogue attacks orc.
10. Fighter attacks orc.
8. Goblin attacks fighter, but rogue has Sentinel, so he uses reaction to attack goblin.
End of "The Round 1"
Beginning of "The Round 2"
15. Orc hits rogue. Rogue cannot use UD because he spent his reaction for "A round 1"
13. End of "A Round 1" for rogue / Beginning of "A Round 2" for rogue. Rogue reaction resets...
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Post by friartook on Jun 6, 2015 1:30:16 GMT
Got it. Took me a couple reads to parse it, but I understand. The rogue's reaction resets after the initiative order he used it in come around again, like a combination lock. So if he uses a reaction in the 3rd slot of initiative order, he has to wait until the 4th slot in the subsequent round to react again.
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Post by friartook on Jun 6, 2015 1:31:53 GMT
Or is it that he has to wait for his own turn to come around again?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 1:46:55 GMT
He waits for his own turn to come around again.
Are you using a house rule initiative system, by the way?
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Post by friartook on Jun 6, 2015 2:55:05 GMT
Not sure honestly. Each player rolls initiative, I roll initiative for all enemies, perhaps separately for a "boss". Ties do a roll off to see who goes first. Everyone adds dex to their roll.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 4:32:47 GMT
The reason I ask is the phrase you used earlier, "when initiative resets." The default method is that you roll initiative once at the beginning of combat, and keep the same initiative order for the entire combat. Are you rolling initiative at the beginning of every round?
That would be technically be a house rule, and complicates a number of other system mechanics, particularly effects tied to the start or end of a creature's turn, as well as when a character regains the use of his one reaction.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jun 6, 2015 6:37:44 GMT
I believe that Friartook is using the standard roll at the beginning of each encounter and keeping that initiative for that encounter. I agree with all the things, and don't think that it is OP. I like the difficult decision that the Rogue has to make each round. Should I use it now? Was that enough damage? What about my opportunity attack? Is halving this damage better than my readied action? I hope that it helps promote some melee combat goodness from your Rogue. Go go sneak attack damage and its ridiculous double all the dice crit goodness!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 16:53:10 GMT
Yeah, my sense is that Uncanny Dodge (and Evasion) were designed to increase the survivability of melee rogues in solo monster fights. Most DMs I know (including myself) give many monsters an MMOG-like threat meter. That is, if you're doing a lot of damage and you're within reach, the monster is going to turn around and start hitting you.
Wading into the midst of a group of enemies isn't the standard tactic for a rogue, and the ability won't help much if he tries it.
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Post by friartook on Jun 6, 2015 18:54:44 GMT
Yes, we set initiative order for the whole encounter. I refer to initiative position 1 as resetting he order strictly for my own sanity in keeping track.
I do the same with my monsters. It just makes sense. If someone is acting as a primary healer, I may have more intelligent monster go after them instead.
I don't expect a rogue to tank. But right now I'm allowing him to use sneak attack with his short bow and that's all he does. Rarely even threatened. I'm making efforts to encourage him to jump in and do some melee. It will make things more interest for him, but he just can't let go of that tactic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 20:13:10 GMT
I've got a rogue at my table that likes to keep in the back and sneak attack with the bow as well. It's kind of their schtick. I don't ever expect her to run up to the front lines, so I'm going to try to include a few scenarios where the party gets surrounded, or faces highly mobile opponents. I'm looking at Githyanki for the latter, with their 3/day misty step.
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Post by joatmoniac on Jun 7, 2015 18:22:52 GMT
Toss in some phase spiders for good measure Nevvur. I also love adding in the vertical element to surprise players and sneak up on them. Having a hatch that opens behind them, an alcove built into the ceiling as it rises. Also, a pit trap in the floor and a gelatinous cube that drops from the ceiling ... muwahaha.
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Post by DMC on Jun 8, 2015 17:49:17 GMT
I'm making efforts to encourage him to jump in and do some melee. It will make things more interest for him, but he just can't let go of that tactic. Are these encounters a part of the BBEG's plans and have the bad guys met the PCs before? If so, have the bad guys start tailoring their tactics towards the PCs. The baddies can learn, adapt, and adjust just as the PCs should. If it's a random encounter, let the Rogue do his thing. If it's a force they are continuously up against, start targeting the Rogue. Not unnecessarily so, but enough to where he can say "Ah crap, they're onto me now." and make him start having to adjust his style and tactics. Snipers are often up against counter-snipers, etc. |
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