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Post by silversage on Mar 14, 2018 13:39:03 GMT
So i’ve hit a big snag for a d&d campaign i’m running and I could use some other DM input. The long and short of it is that my players have created a temporal paradox, and I was wondering exactly how it should thematically play out (AKA how should I torture them, for messing with time)? More specifically, I’m running a campaign heavily involved around time and the apparent destruction of it throughout the universe. In our most recent session, my PCs traveled to the Elemental Plane of Fire, 30 years in the past. The former home of my fire genasi PC. When she was very little (about 30 years ago), the PC witnessed her own mother sacrifice herself, to save the life of a mysterious stranger (which the PC now found out, was in fact, herself from the future). Despite me rendering the PC unconscious and completely devoid of agency (something I hate to do, but felt was necessary for the story), the rest of the party still managed to interfere with the natural cause of events. Honestly, I should have expected it. I feel like an idiot. But nevertheless, I’m left with an interesting opportunity and something of a temporal disaster. I want my PCs to feel the weight of their actions, and I definitely want them to realize it’s not wise to simply go around mucking up timelines (they’re the ones who are supposed to save time after all). And, this causes several inconveniences for them. On the other hand, I did put them in the position, so I can’t blame them for being the murder hobos they are. Here's a quick rundown of how the PCs have affected time: - They snuck into the Charcoal Palace and assassinated the previous Sultan of the Effreet.
- Planted Evidence at the crime scene to make it seem like the Fey court assassinated the Sultan.
- Someone who is not supposed to be alive is now alive (PC’s mother).
- A PC now has an incurable disease which was supposed to be healed by special blood magic via the mother’s death.
Here’s some rough ideas i’ve been kicking around: 1.)The PCs remember two distinct timelines. One where the mother dies, and one where she is alive and well. See Berenstain bears/ mandela effect ( mandelaeffect.com/). There is otherwise no discerning changes to their timeline. 2.) Time always corrects itself. Shortly after saving her mother, The PC’s mom dies in a tragic yet unrelated way. 3.) The PC has altered the timeline to the point where she no longer is the same person. She has completely different memories and experiences. She has been considering rebuilding her character. This may be a good opportunity. Ally PCs make a charisma saving throw to try and remember the original version of her. 4.) There is a sonic “time boom” and everything gets shifted a little bit. Kind of like the DC story flash point. The Fey preoccupation with battling the efreet has led to the new “blood war.” One PC’s unborn child gets erased from history. By and large the universe is a much worse place now that a PC’s mother is alive. I welcome all suggestions and any ideas/input you guys have. Thanks for your help! |
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Post by 00dlez on Mar 14, 2018 15:07:25 GMT
This is a very complex topic to tackle in short, digestible forum posts, but I think you did a god job including what we needed to know.
Before reading your possible solutions, I had a notion of my own that seems to touch on a few of yours - let me know what you think.
Somewhere in the cosmos there is a time god of sorts that, when conflicts like this arise, freezes time across all planes to hold a court and sort out the mess, and then makes a decision to "correct" the conflicts. This correction is no small task and is not as simple as it sounds. In the case of the Fire Genasi, if they are ruled to no longer exist in the future timeline, they are violently and painfully ripped from time in some unimaginably horrific way.
The "Time Court" understands that there a parallel universes and alternative timelines, but only steps in to make a correction when one certain timelines with large implications to the "primary timeline" start to diverge too greatly. Only at this time are these trials held and they are very serious matters.
All this said, maybe the Time Court has some agenda of it's own, and their decision can be swayed if the party is willing to grant them favors or perform a specialized task of some sort? Maybe the court outlines the serious implications of choosing one timeline over the other, making the PCs make choices about saving those close to them over the future downfall of civilizations, or rise of truly evil powers in the world....
That any help?
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Post by silversage on Mar 14, 2018 16:18:38 GMT
This is a very complex topic to tackle in short, digestible forum posts, but I think you did a god job including what we needed to know. Before reading your possible solutions, I had a notion of my own that seems to touch on a few of yours - let me know what you think. Somewhere in the cosmos there is a time god of sorts that, when conflicts like this arise, freezes time across all planes to hold a court and sort out the mess, and then makes a decision to "correct" the conflicts. This correction is no small task and is not as simple as it sounds. In the case of the Fire Genasi, if they are ruled to no longer exist in the future timeline, they are violently and painfully ripped from time in some unimaginably horrific way. The "Time Court" understands that there a parallel universes and alternative timelines, but only steps in to make a correction when one certain timelines with large implications to the "primary timeline" start to diverge too greatly. Only at this time are these trials held and they are very serious matters. All this said, maybe the Time Court has some agenda of it's own, and their decision can be swayed if the party is willing to grant them favors or perform a specialized task of some sort? Maybe the court outlines the serious implications of choosing one timeline over the other, making the PCs make choices about saving those close to them over the future downfall of civilizations, or rise of truly evil powers in the world.... That any help? Thats a really cool idea, and I appreciate your thoughts. Unfortunately that doesn't really gel with how the gods of my world interact with mortals. They are really distant and somewhat unconcerned with most mortal affairs. Thus far, I've kind used alternate timelines as way to show the PCs "see... this is what would have happened if you decided to fight that dragon or open that door." Most often it means they would have gotten party wiped. With that in mind, alternate timelines sort of "run rampant" in my game. So I doubt the goddess of time would bother to clean anything up. Furthermore, its been strongly alluded to that the goddess of time (Teeg) is trying to help the PCs. I think it would be antithetical to all of a sudden put her in conflict with the PCs. But thanks for your post! keep the great ideas coming guys. |
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Post by lasersniper on Mar 14, 2018 19:16:53 GMT
Honestly if the PC this effects (the one who's mother is in question) is considering changing her character around I would approach her with the opportunity. Sounds like the perfect story for two different problems. It is what I would approach first. If she wants to keep her character the same however, I like the flash point route. It can give you an opportunity to set real stakes for the players to show they can really screw up and their actions of consequences. Players seem like they constantly need to be reminded of this.
If you do the time never really changes" thing and the mother dies, that is going to be telling for the rest of your campaign and you may have to adjust for that in the future. One thing I never liked about the self healing time gimmick is that it only seems to work one way. From those changing the past fail. If it was truly self healing then time would be in a state of constant. You can't go mucking around with the future because it already happened and it time will fix itself.
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Post by Lexurium on Mar 16, 2018 12:32:10 GMT
Great, complicated question, by the way.
Here's the thing: Your players are setting out to save Time (yes, with a big T) from those who wish to change it. Did i get that right? In that case, several things follow:
1. Time is mutable.
This leads to time-travel, as you have already seen, but this also means time can be changed. This is important. If time cannot be changed, then the PCs quest is nullified. It is simply gone. If there is no way to change time, time does not need to be saved, it will take care of itself and the Pcs are not needed.
2. Anyone, with the correct resources, can change time/travel in time.
This is where the tension comes from. The villain possesses the means to change time, so does the party. They have both aparently already done it. If you do not, at this point, embrace the capability of the party to change time, then the party will become powerless in relation to the villain (the villain cannot lose, because he/she controls time and noone else does).
3. There is no almighty being controling time.
If there was one, there would be no reason to fix things.
These are the logical points in the story that are difficult to mess with and retain an internal logic. These are what makes your story interesting, and that is why, in my opinion, you cannot use most of the ideas you listed, nor those of 00dlez and lasersniper's only with caution.
*NOTE: These are only my opinions, to be taken as such and at face value, and do at no point constitute an attack on any user, as I know them both to be great members of the community.*
Why not?
While the idea is cool, it removes the stakes completely. The PCs actions has no effect on the timeline, thus they cannot change time, thus they cannot win/are not needed.
The best case scenario if you use this is that the campaign turns into a railroad, the party can still change SOME events, but only if you want them to.
While less obvious, this also removes both agency and tension. If time is self-repairing, if there is a certain way events will play out, then the PCs are either not needed or their actions are dedicated by fate. Both of these situations are horrible, and once again, lead to a best case of a DM-piloted railroad.
This idea has potential, and I agree with lasersniper that it could be usefull if used in discussion with the player piloting the character. However, this does not go far enough. The party has caused a cataclysmic shift in politics between two powerfull planes and removed an important part of a PCs backstory, maybe even her reason for adventuring (I do not know if that is the case). At this point simply changing the PC I think is a half-measure. More on this later.
This has the most potential, and I think a version of this is what needs to happen if any sense of player agency and power is to be retained in this scenario.
I will not continue quote by quote since I think my point has been clearly made.
How would I do it then?
Clearly the PCs have got to be cautioned. They haved messed with powers beyond their understanding and capability to control. Now, I would not punish the players directly, not even all at once. For one, if they are still in the time 30 years before now, nothing changes (more than the party has already changed things). No booms, no cataclysmic explosions, nothing. Consequences do not work like that. What I might have happen is that the Efreet PC slowly just fades from existence. But here is a great caveat: TALK TO THEM FIRST, THE PLAYER MUST BE OK WITH THIS
Now, what I'm thinking here is this: The change to time is so great that the PC no longer has a reason to adventure with the party and so would never have joined them in the first place. Instead, the framing of the Fey by the party has caused mounting conflict in the interveening thirty years between *now* and *then*, somehow making the former PC now be a general/warlord/leader of the Efreet seeking to ruin the Fey while the Fey war with the Efreet all over the astral plane. The player must entirely reroll character, and her former self becomes a villain, or at least an opponent. I think the player will be onboard with this, they usually like seeing their characters become extremely powerful, and its a cool story-thing.
When the PCs return to their native time, nothing is the same, the sky is alight with fire and mortal empires have become the slaves of the Efreet as they seek resources to fight against the Fey. NPC friends the party has met are either dead, captured or working for the new rulers. The party has become isolated in a nightmare of their own creation. But a ray of light, the new PC finds the party, herself/himself driven to adventure by the actions of her old PC/now warlord. The new PC can be used to explain the situation and guide the players to either work within these new parameters, or attempt to reset the balance, go back in time once again and try to convince their past selves not to commit the acts they just committed...
Or at least something like that, it's a bit rough to be sure.
The point to all this is: The change is real, the power is real, the consequences are real and really, I mean extremely, scary.
Hope this helps! If you want to bounce ideas around I would be more than willing to help!
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