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Post by dm_mainprize on Apr 2, 2015 23:10:38 GMT
Hello fellow Dungeon Masters.
I tried something in my session last night and would like to get your feedback on it. My players were fighting 5 bugbears and the battle was getting pretty intense. My current method for describing combat goes as follows. If the player hits the enemy I let them describe how the blow lands (within reason, no cutting of limbs for 3 damage) and if the player misses then I describe how that took place. Now some of the bugbears got below half health and the players attack descriptions were starting to paint a picture of bugbears that wouldn't be near as combat effective as they had been a few minutes earlier. So I decided to try a new idea, for the rest of that fight and the rest of the night any time an enemy dropped below half hp I would roll that enemies attacks and saving throws with disadvantage. I felt like it just made since, a person who has been beaten up and lost half their health couldn't possibly fight as strong or as fast as someone with full health. This idea obviously creates some issues. A, my players could meta game during combat to take out weak enemies, B should they suffer the same affect, should my players attack roll with disadvantage when they are below half hp? And a whole slew of other scenarios and mechanical issues. It worked last night but not sure if its something I should try again. Any thoughts?
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Post by friartook on Apr 2, 2015 23:32:24 GMT
I would not recommend putting this in place as a general mechanic. Instead, do this on a case by case basis. For example, an undead enemy may continue attacking no matter their damage. They may even ignore a missing limb and be just as dangerous in combat. There were mechanics in previous editions where certain monsters and races (orcs, for example) would fight harder when reduced to low HP. being near death would get their berserker blood up. So, make it situational. If you, as the DM, feel your monsters should be attacking with disadvantage, then by all means, make it so. However, I would always make that sword double edged. If the monsters suffer disadvantage for injuries, the players must as well to maintain balance. I had a player lose an arm in my current campaign. If he had been a melee fighter, I would have given him disadvantage until he got used to fighting with only one arm. Lucky for him, he is a sorcerer, so he also avoided the chance of spell failure I would have placed on a Wizard with one arm
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Post by dm_mainprize on Apr 2, 2015 23:47:00 GMT
Awesome thoughts, hadn't even considers undead as another potential issue. I knew orcs and some other races get more dangerous at lower health. I am gonna try and play with it a bit and see where the good balance is.
Now onto the idea of a player losing an arm. How did that go for the player? I feel my players might lose their mind if i cut off a limb. Is that something you kinda talk about at session 0, setting the expectation early on? I really want to play my next game as much more realistic, less health potions and healing, more enduring damage and injuries.
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Post by friartook on Apr 2, 2015 23:57:23 GMT
It was a failed Dex save on a vicious trap. It was very, very early on in the campaign. Perhaps session 3 or 4. There was an item in a recess on a wall. He reached in to grab it, failed his Dex save, lost an arm, and took permanent HP damage.
I did not give them any notice that something like that would, or could, happen. It was one of those beautiful moments as a DM, where all the players' eyes got wide. Things got real quiet. Furtive glances were exchanged. I could feel the, "oh my god he's serious". It was the moment when they first realized that seriously bad stuff could happen to their characters. It was the moment they realized they weren't playing a video game.
The best part is that this same player later attempted to attack an NPC I had specifically placed there as a plot hook and way to get a new arm. This NPC could have done for the whole party, but I played nice and took it easy on the newbie role players. They patched things up, and had to complete their second big quest with one arm. He now has a magic "robot" arm made from the bones of his severed arm (he decided to keep the arm and strip the meat off it it) and bits of a formerly animated suit of armor. This was custom made for him by the NPC, a grateful gnome artificer named Bixota Bob.
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Post by friartook on Apr 3, 2015 0:08:02 GMT
I really want to play my next game as much more realistic, less health potions and healing, more enduring damage and injuries. For the record, my players are level 4, almost level 5, and have never seen or heard of a healing potion. The only heals come from the cleric, the paladin, and resting. In case you haven't noticed, I love keeping things real tense at the table
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Post by dm_mainprize on Apr 3, 2015 0:49:04 GMT
Ya I noticed and thats totally awesome, as far as heals from resting, do you expend hit dice or do you do a slower regeneration over time?
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 3, 2015 6:51:37 GMT
I think that Friartook is right. It can't be a catch all for everything at half health, but the mechanic itself should be used in as many places as you can make sense. Some monsters at half health would make perfect sense to have disadvantage, in the same way that some would completely rage and potentially even have advantage. There is of course the mindless undead who would have neither regardless of their health. I want to make things much more real for my next group, and potentially the one I am currently running.
Side note: I want to play a character that has a limb missing, because I think that would be awesome to role play.
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Post by friartook on Apr 3, 2015 13:27:37 GMT
Ya I noticed and thats totally awesome, as far as heals from resting, do you expend hit dice or do you do a slower regeneration over time? Both. I have them expend hit dice on short rests, up to the full amount. So if a player has 4d8 hit dice, they may expend up to 4 of them during a short rest. However, they do not regain hit dice until a long rest is taken.On a long rest everything charges back up. They regain all HP, Hit Dice, spell slots, etc. I balance this by making it difficult or impossible to take long rests on a regular basis. I'll use terrain, enemies, environment, or plot points to keep things moving. I have also begun tracking rations and water supplies. I have them expend a day's worth of rations and 1/2 gallon (assuming a water skin is 1 gallon) of water on a long rest. If I keep them going for more than a day without a long rest, I will make them expend the same during a short rest; ya gotta eat some time. In the most recent "chapter" of our adventure the PCs were traversing a maze. The maze was progressive (as opposed to labyrinthine; no wrong turns). It had 4 outer rooms and a central room. Each outer room contained an elemental that had to be defeated or avoided in order to progress. The central room contained the Elemental Golem (see the Homebrew Monster forum). It took 3 sessions to make it through this whole maze. I did not allow a long rest at any time. Some of the PCs are very low on rations, and some used their water skins trying to hurt the fire elemental. I kept the pressure up by saying things like, "Sure you can take a long rest. But I feel I should remind you that that is 8 hours, and you will have have expend rations and water." They are also on a time clock. They have to complete their current task within a year. 3 months were taken up in a sea voyage. They've now spent about 2 weeks on this island. Due to a very bad Charisma check, their ship has left, so they have no foreseeable way to get home within a year. All these things add up to a general reluctance to spend lots of time resting. This is by design.
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Post by friartook on Apr 3, 2015 13:29:21 GMT
I really want to play my next game as much more realistic, less health potions and healing, more enduring damage and injuries. For the record, my players are level 4, almost level 5, and have never seen or heard of a healing potion. The only heals come from the cleric, the paladin, and resting. In case you haven't noticed, I love keeping things real tense at the table Correction: There were healing potions for sale in the large city they were most recently in. But I've kept them so poor, they couldn't afford them. Man, am I mean...
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Post by DMC on Apr 3, 2015 16:16:47 GMT
It depends on what you consider "HP" to be. Is it physical damage? I don't usually break it out like that. I see a "Hit" on a character as many things. Sure cuts, lacerations, broken bones, etc. comprise it, but so does a "hit" to the armor of a PC that doesn't actually penetrate. The character might just have a nasty bruise on their ribs the next day.
Likewise, a "miss" isn't always mean a "Swing and a miss!" It could be it actually makes contact with the armor, but it's a glancing blow, or a hit that doesn't have much behind it.
That being said, I've ran into problems with players describing what happens on their hits. I've since taken to doing that myself. If it's especially nasty, and the player's put a lot of thought into their description-of-action, and they strike really well on the roll (or Crit), I may give them and/or the party Advantage (or any other condition that fits the situation) on that creature for the rest of the duration. The situation dictates the outcome, and it also rewards players for putting a lot of thought and creativity into their actions.
Example:
PC: "I swing my sword at the orc." Orc AC: 13 PC Roll: 14 DM: "Your blade connects solidly on the orc's shoulder. Roll damage.
vs.
PC: "I bend my knee, dropping low, feinting high with my sword in an attempt to bring his defenses up, and then crack the edge of my shield into his exposed leg. Orc AC: 13 PC Roll: 19 DM: The brutish creature falls for your ploy, and as he raises his axe to counter your feint, you seize the opportunity. Your shield slices across to land solidly on the orc's knee-joint. He howls in pain and stumbles back limping. Roll your damage, and then you can also take an Opportunity Attack since he left your threatened space, and the Orc's speed is halved for the duration.
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Post by joatmoniac on Apr 3, 2015 19:13:17 GMT
I agree that creativity should warrant advantage. Also, I started watching Critical Role on Geek and Sundry and it is amazing, entire group is voice actors. I love how the DM let's the players describe things, and it's on their kills. That way the more elaborate they are it doesn't adversely the rest of the combat. I also agree that HP represents the characters ability to fight not that they are dead. It could be so many things, general exhaustion from taking any kind of hit. I train in a fairly aggressive martial art style and I still remember the day we just took hits and how exhausting it was. It could be the bruising as mentioned, or getting the air blasted out of you from hand to hand, or the loss of oxygen from the fireball cast at you, or the ... the list goes on, haha. Also, that is an awesome description and affect in your example DMC.
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Post by DM Chris on Apr 4, 2015 5:06:30 GMT
Side note: I want to play a character that has a limb missing, because I think that would be awesome to role play. Flaws are awesome rolepl a y opportunities. I talked with mitch about this a few days ago and we concured that h ou could do some awesomevthings with only one arm!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 19:03:05 GMT
Creativity should be rewarded, except when it opens the door to repeated exploitation. That is, if a player finds an interesting way to use an item/power/etc, be wary of allowing them to use it often/always to gain an advantage.
An example, last week I had my party fight a Water Weird. As it lost HP, I described its appearance changing such that it became visibly hollow, with an aquamarine gemstone floating in the center. The arcane trickster used Mage Hand to try to grab the gemstone and pull it toward her. The Water Weird was intrinsically linked to the stone, so doing this caught it off guard, allowing her to drag it a few spaces. Normally forced movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, but I let the melee guys get a shot off anyway.
The next round the trickster tried it again, but I said that since Mage Hand only gives you 30 pounds of lift, and the Water Weird was expecting this, it resisted the effort.
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Samuel Wise
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Posts: 989
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Post by Samuel Wise on Apr 4, 2015 19:33:11 GMT
Creativity should be rewarded, except when it opens the door to repeated exploitation. Reminds me of a xkcd: There is some creativity... Someone is obviously using out-of-character knowledge.
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