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Post by sparkusclark on Jun 5, 2016 0:23:59 GMT
Okay, so the MM says that a 4th lvl druid is a CR2 for a party of four, correct?
My question then is, does this mean a Druid of 10th lvl would be a CR5 for a party of six?*
Or would this be like trying to bake a 60m/350o cake at 15m/1050o??
*Four 4th lvl and Two 3rd PCs
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 1:13:02 GMT
The power bumps at PC level 5, 11, 16 and 20 mean PC levels and monster equivalent levels (CR) don't remain a constant ratio. For example, a party with a level 11 and three level 8s has a combined party level of 35, but is (generically) more powerful than a party with a level 10, level 9, and two level 8s. The difference isn't glaring, and even less noticeable at lower levels (e.g. a party of 5/4/2/2 is different than a 4/4/3/2), but the difference does exist.
Monster power bumps also occur as CR increases, and at similar intervals, to account for PC power bumps. Generally speaking, it's more dangerous for a group of 4th level PCs to fight a CR 5 than it is for a group of 3rd level PCs to fight a CR 4. Bounded accuracy complicates the maths for groups with mixed CR (at least to the extent I don't want to think about it).
Remember that monster stat blocks don't use PC creation rules, even when they are based on PC classes. For your specific question, the druid stat block in the MM is not the same as a 4th level druid made with PC creation rules, even though it says the druid is a "4th-level spellcaster". The priest is another CR 2 creature, but it's a "5th-level spellcaster." Why the difference? Neither of them gets access to the full suite of class abilities. The druid doesn't have wild shape, and the cleric doesn't have channel divinity, for example. The loss of wild shape is greater than the loss of channel divinity. This also goes a long way toward explaining why higher CRs are not CRx2 in terms of their level (e.g. archmage is 18th level spellcaster, CR 12; mage is 9th level spellcaster CR 6).
So if you create a 10th level druid using PC creation rules, he is most certainly not CR 5. Rough estimate, it would be a CR 8.
If you want to use the base stats of the druid creature in the monster manual, and buff it up to something in the vicinity of a CR 5, I recommend granting it additional features appropriate to the "class" to reflect the power bump that occurs between CR 4 and 5.
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Post by sparkusclark on Jun 5, 2016 1:48:58 GMT
So if you create a 10th level druid using PC creation rules, he is most certainly not CR 5. Rough estimate, it would be a CR 8. If you want to use the base stats of the druid creature in the monster manual, and buff it up to something in the vicinity of a CR 5, I recommend granting it additional features appropriate to the "class" to reflect the power bump that occurs between CR 4 and 5. Okay, so if I took the MM druid, bumped his WIS up to 16 and CHA up to 14 took make him a bit more of a challenge and to bump up his Intimidation (character reasons). Gave him a +4 Proficiancy in Insight, Nature and Intimidation and gave him access to 10th lvl spell set: 4C, 4-1, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 2-5; but had him only able to prep 10 spells instead of 13 (and not worry about picking a 'path')? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 2:10:56 GMT
Yes on the 10th level spell set. Limiting him to 10 prepared spells is fine, since he probably won't have a chance to use half of them in a fight.
Personally, I would increase his Wis to 18. Don't forget to increase his HPs, spell save DC, and spell attack while you're at it. I would also grant him the level 6 and 10 class features from circle of the land. They won't massively augment his combat ability if it comes to a fight, but they may prove useful, and jive well on the "monster power bump" discussed above.
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Post by sparkusclark on Jun 5, 2016 2:28:27 GMT
Yes on the 10th level spell set. Limiting him to 10 prepared spells is fine, since he probably won't have a chance to use half of them in a fight. Personally, I would increase his Wis to 18. Don't forget to increase his HPs, spell save DC, and spell attack while you're at it. I would also grant him the level 6 and 10 class features from circle of the land. They won't massively augment his combat ability if it comes to a fight, but they may prove useful, and jive well on the "monster power bump" discussed above. 10-4 Mr. Vur Yeah this npc is a dick and I want him to be a challenge...unless the Paladin talks her way out of the encounter...which is possible. Anywho, if they survive the dragon tomorrow, then he should make for an interesting challenge in terms of magic and general asshattery. |
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Post by joatmoniac on Jun 5, 2016 18:45:11 GMT
pg. 273 in the Dungeon Master's Guide is another great place to run the monster through to see how it stacks up against the suggested statistics there in the book. Certainly not a sure fire method, but definitely helps get things in the right ball park.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 20:55:32 GMT
Ya, and honestly, using the DMG will probably yield a "monster" that is mechanically closer to CR 5 (if that's the target you're aiming for) than my suggestion. However, I'm operating on the assumption sparkusclark doesn't have the DMG
Keep in mind that it will probably be a very short fight if you build him using either method. He's probably going to be in the vicinity of 60 HPs. A group of 6 PCs level 3-4 going alpha strike on this guy could drop him in one round. More likely it will take 2 or 3 rounds, but not much longer than that. I would consider giving him max HP (i.e. 10th level druid = 80 + con mod x 10) if you intend for him to be a solo boss encounter. That, or add a few low CR minions and leave his HP around 60.
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Post by sparkusclark on Jun 6, 2016 3:36:19 GMT
Ya, and honestly, using the DMG will probably yield a "monster" that is mechanically closer to CR 5 (if that's the target you're aiming for) than my suggestion. However, I'm operating on the assumption sparkusclark doesn't have the DMG Keep in mind that it will probably be a very short fight if you build him using either method. He's probably going to be in the vicinity of 60 HPs. A group of 6 PCs level 3-4 going alpha strike on this guy could drop him in one round. More likely it will take 2 or 3 rounds, but not much longer than that. I would consider giving him max HP (i.e. 10th level druid = 80 + con mod x 10) if you intend for him to be a solo boss encounter. That, or add a few low CR minions and leave his HP around 60. Okay, yeah. I'm definatly having him use Reincarnation on the body of an enemy the players left behind to have some back up. I'm also popping in another spell or two, and trying to use Gaes, Charm Person, and even Hold Person/Dominate Beast* to mess with/turn around the party structure. Because my players just (5-4's and 2-3's) just beat down a Young Adult Green Dragon. Okay, true, it was my first game sending them up against something this big, so I had the breath weapon at CON DC11 6d6** because I wasn't too sure what would go down. Even then, the three caught up close were the ones who did the least damage; while the archerer, rogue, and two spell casters kept their distance and did the most damage. All while trying to keep a pair of prisoners alive. So, yeah, they made it, and even with my change they still almost lost two characters. Either way, I think the druid should definatly be more of a challange. *The ranger has a deadly wolf companion **With the explination that it was still out of it's wormling stage. |
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