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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 21:10:32 GMT
Great episode with some fantastic ideas. Alas, a little late to implement them in my own homebrew, since magic there is pretty far along in its definition. There were two ideas that leaped out at me, and I wanted to explore them further here:
Magic impedes the development of technology: This is something I actually have planned for my homebrew already, but haven't touched on with my writing as yet. The science of chemistry (alchemy) especially was given second-string to a magical technique called Infusion, which is a catch-all term for skills involving the investment of magic into mundane items (consumable and permanent). Alchemical research continues on a limited scale, and alchemists can find gainful employment producing tried and true concoctions, but there's a dearth of funding and education available to make large strides in the science.
A part of the reason for this ties into the psychological reaction to magic. I've done a large amount of writing about magic for my setting, but that information isn't common knowledge. To the average person, magic is still mysterious and terrifying. However, potions, for instance, are a safe way for someone to hold magic, experience its cause and effect, and generally make it slightly less scary. Infusers are lauded for making magic accessible to non-magic users (at least, those who can afford it), while alchemists are just boring craftsmen.
How magic in general and Infusion in particular ought to effect other technologies isn't something I've explored much yet. This isn't a world where brooms sweep themselves, but it would make sense for difficult undertakings to be facilitated by magic. The question becomes one of utility, practicality and cost. Consider a magical crane than can lift any weight, is easily transportable, and never breaks VS. a mundane one with all its limitations. Certainly seems like the sort of device a government or construction company would invest in, because it eventually pays for itself in terms of saved labor and other resources.
For especially exotic or intractable problems, people might look to magic as a solution before they even consider mundane ones.
Initiation in secret society, lifelong commitment: I love this idea, and when I heard it I immediately wanted to apply it to all spellcasters in my setting. However, there's simply too much open use of magic already written into my world's history to make that feasible.
Still, it's something I think I'll include on a more limited basis, probably for bad guy NPCs. The cults of the dark gods would be suitable for these types of initiations. My tentative plan is not to have the initiation result in the Wizard or Sorcerer class, per se, only to grant initiates thematically appropriate magical abilities... something that can be contained in a monster stat block, for instance.
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planeshifterixiaul
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Post by planeshifterixiaul on May 3, 2016 4:29:51 GMT
Great show! There were several ideas worth thinking over more for my own homebrew setting. Something that wasn't mentioned that surprises me is magic being addictive or corrupting. This is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "the price of magic."
I'm reminded of the Warcraft universe. On Azeroth, arcane magic has been like a drug to some. I think this could add a lot of fun for a game where arcane spellcasters have to resist the lure of magic.
Any thoughts?
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Post by dmsam on May 3, 2016 4:57:20 GMT
Addictive magic is something of interest for many writers. Where casting spells is euphoric, but could potentially cause harm to the caster. The problem is that "too much" is difficult to determine for each character, especially in a game.
Another aspect to explore is blood magic. Life is perhaps the most powerful magic that exists, and the movement of a soul from one plane to another could potentially empower a spell to greater effects, if harness properly. What would magicians do, knowing that rather casting the same teleportation circle three hundred and sixty five times , that it can become permanent in just one cast at the cost of a living person? Or that a cleric's hallow can cover the span of an entire city rather than a mere 60' at the same cost? What if you can cast spells levels above what you are capable of, if only someone died for each spell?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 9:17:02 GMT
Great show! There were several ideas worth thinking over more for my own homebrew setting. Something that wasn't mentioned that surprises me is magic being addictive or corrupting. This is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "the price of magic." I'm reminded of the Warcraft universe. On Azeroth, arcane magic has been like a drug to some. I think this could add a lot of fun for a game where arcane spellcasters have to resist the lure of magic. Any thoughts? Addiction is a powerful theme in fiction, but I've rarely seen it executed well in TTRPGs. Long term magic use in my setting can have deleterious effects, but it's not intrinsically addictive. Here's a short blurb from my magic theory document:
Yet while it is held within the Drigen during the second step, astral energy is exposed to the subconscious mind, causing unpredictable transformations within the caster. Modern spellcasters perform their spells so quickly as to mitigate most of the harm, but the damage is cumulative and long lasting. Continuous use has a progressive and usually permanent effect, with the incidence rate of insanity, tumors, and other abnormalities higher among long-term users of magic than it is in the general populace. The danger is known but not considered urgent by most practitioners, a deterrent on par with the health effects of drugs and alcohol on their abusers.
Whether these effects enter gameplay remains at the discretion of the GM. This document is intended to give players a sense for the metaphysics of Sheth, not act as a deterrent to playing spellcasters. Even characters who have used magic their entire lives need not be outwardly deformed or dangerously insane. Eccentrism is more common than madness among wizened wizards, and robes do wonders for covering minor physical abnormalities.
The biggest hangup I have with magic being intrinsically addictive is that it seems to dictate a narrow range of possible character arcs if it's treated seriously. It's one thing for a player to decide his character is addicted to alcohol or drugs and to play that out, but I don't think it's a fair (or fun) expectation that a spellcaster must deliberate on the use of his signature set of skills while everyone else can use theirs with impunity. Of course, the extent to which he must deliberate is going to depend a lot on the actual consequences of using, and a lot of those consequences can be purely narrative. I'd be mostly concerned with mechanical effects. If I were to make addiction to magic a theme in my setting (I won't, but just hypothetically), I would leave the repercussions of both use and withdrawal in the hands of the players, similarly to the suggestion in the second paragraph of the outtake above. On a side note, power itself can be an addictive, and magic certainly is power. |
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Post by catcharlie on May 3, 2016 16:25:10 GMT
I had a thought on an alternative for the 'Pool of Magic' theory. (I'm sure it could do with some improvement as I've only just thought of it)
All magic comes from a pool of magic, this pool is limited and when ever a magic user starts messing with magic they begin to tap into the pool, the more they use magic the more magic they build up in their body and the bigger and better spells they can cast. Once the magic user dies all the magic that they have stored up in themselves returns to the pool of magic so that it can be used again. There are two problems with this though, firstly, the more people who are able to use magic the less magic there is in the pool for future people to use, though this is sorted when they die. The second problem is lichs, a magic user who has died and cheated death to return to the world of the living is able to keep the magic they have stored up during their time alive, in addition to this in the process of dying and returning they are able to 'steal' (and/or siphon) extra magic from the pool making themselves more powerful than they should be able to and reducing the available magic for the rest of the world. Due to a Lich's ability to cheat death it could be possible for the pool of magic to run dry with all of the magic stored in the Lichs in the world of the living.
Anybody got any thoughts on what I've put so far?
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DMForeclosure
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Post by DMForeclosure on May 3, 2016 20:44:22 GMT
I'll try to come into the actual conversation in a bit, but I just want to point out that anyone who isn't listening to Critical Hit really should. It's fantastic and Rodrigo is an amazing GM. You could only see the tip of the weird iceberg that is Rodrigo's brain in this episode, but it was still awesome.
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planeshifterixiaul
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Post by planeshifterixiaul on May 3, 2016 23:12:57 GMT
Addiction is a powerful theme in fiction, but I've rarely seen it executed well in TTRPGs. Long term magic use in my setting can have deleterious effects, but it's not intrinsically addictive. The biggest hangup I have with magic being intrinsically addictive is that it seems to dictate a narrow range of possible character arcs if it's treated seriously. It's one thing for a player to decide his character is addicted to alcohol or drugs and to play that out, but I don't think it's a fair (or fun) expectation that a spellcaster must deliberate on the use of his signature set of skills while everyone else can use theirs with impunity. Of course, the extent to which he must deliberate is going to depend a lot on the actual consequences of using, and a lot of those consequences can be purely narrative. I'd be mostly concerned with mechanical effects. If I were to make addiction to magic a theme in my setting (I won't, but just hypothetically), I would leave the repercussions of both use and withdrawal in the hands of the players, similarly to the suggestion in the second paragraph of the outtake above. On a side note, power itself can be an addictive, and magic certainly is power. You have a good point. I don't think addiction is something most people want in their games. I remember seeing drugs in a supplement once in the 3.5 era. If a player wants to role-play an addiction, fine. It's probably not a good idea to use addiction mechanics. What about corruption? I've never played, but I hear the Dark Sun campaign setting has arcane magic as damaging to the planet? So much so that the gods washed their hands of that world. Use of arcane magic could have some corrupting effects. I'd prefer something less devastating as killing the planet. Perhaps make high level magic risky in what could happen if not everything goes right. What if enough high level magic attracted the wrong kind of attention? Fun stuff to discuss and think about adding to our games if that will be fun for our groups. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 4:33:28 GMT
How are you defining corruption, exactly?
Again, magic in my setting can have a harmful effect, but it's not something I want to systematize. I do state quite clearly that spellcasting can result in insanity/physical deformities, but I leave it to the players to decide if this even happens to them. The assumption is that modern spellcasting techniques have evolved to mitigate the inherent dangers of handling magical energy.
Out of the Abyss and other Season 3 AL materials offer some systems for handling and acquiring madness. I'm not a fan, but it's something to look at for people interested in adding systems to impose a "price of magic."
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 4:43:34 GMT
Another peculiarity of magic in my setting is the danger of using teleportation magic. I included this partially as a means to discourage teleportation as an easy fix to the travel problem, but the real motivating factor is how the Teleportation Circle spell has such profound implications for civilization in general. The roughly 18000 GP to create a permanent one is a small investment next to a lifetime of expenses tied up in ships and sailors, caravans and guards, tolls, docking fees, etc... It stands to reason that every government and large commercial enterprise would invest in them, and their existence ought to change the "natural" progress of the societies that use them. (natural here is assuming an Earth-like progression).
My solution is for aberrants to come pouring out of the "spaces between space" when teleportation magic is used. It's a low chance occurrence for spontaneous spells like dimension door, but teleportation circles aren't feasible when there's a beholder waiting to jump through the next time it opens.
Of course, the civilization-scale impact of magic extends to other spells, as well. It's hard to account for all of them. War is an entirely new conversation when people can fly and fling fireballs. The material cost of Raise Dead and similar spells creates an interesting dynamic between the wealthy and poor. Criminal justice systems could be nigh infallible with Zone of Truth. Magic just changes society on so many levels. Making it extremely rare is the only quick way (I can think of) to reconcile this fact with a setting that resembles medieval Earth in most other respects.
That, or just hand wave the implications in the interest of fun. Eberron is good at that.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 9:07:16 GMT
Mostly babbling at myself at this point, but the point I'm driving at is that there's a strong financial motivation for civilizations to use magic on a very large scale. Greed can overcome a lot of barriers, so I think it takes something at least as strong as greed to contain magic. What are those limiting factors? It's a question I think every world builder should ask.
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planeshifterixiaul
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Post by planeshifterixiaul on May 7, 2016 9:53:58 GMT
Wow. Nice breakdown.
I'm wanting to have magic in my world be notably different. Which is why I'm so interested in the price of magic. I've considered magic users having marks that show what they are/what they can do.
I know this is off topic, but I've even considered having magic be restrictive in that it's only accessible through a physical medium such as crystals. These crystals would grow at ley-line intersections. Since you brought up teleportation magic (which I've been luck enough not to have issues with), these crystal clusters could be the only means of teleportation circles, making for interesting possibilities with a city revolving around the cultivation of these crystals.
Still only rough ideas though.
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Post by grimmhelm on May 8, 2016 19:22:01 GMT
Great show, lot's to chew on plus having Rodrigo from Critical Hit is always a good bonus!
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Post by frohtastic on Jun 17, 2016 3:15:16 GMT
As I listened to the first segment ( rest was corrupted for some reason ) I had the idea of what if the Arcane Energy existed before the Gods, and that the Gods were just practicioners of magic that just got so powerful that they turned into god-like beings. Aka every wizard, sorcerer, etc has the possibility to become a god, given enough time. EDIT: Actually being able to listen to the episode it seemed this was already brought up  |
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Post by meribson on Apr 9, 2017 3:52:26 GMT
I haven't decided one if it's the exception or the rule, but I'm currently leaning towards the idea that all powerful magic items in my setting are intelligent. These items have "defenses" to prevent those they deem unworthy from wielding or using them. A Guard Captain has a bastard sword that will only allow arcane magic users of a martial inclination to wield it. An orc clan from a region indirectly referenced in the blog setting has an heirloom hammer that will kill any outside a specific bloodline that try to use it.
There's an artifact deep in the wilds of Sylvanor guarded by revenants that was created for the excuse to use the following exchange as PCs defeat the guardians:
Revenant: "Turn...back."
PC: "Really? You're still trying to protect the spear?"
Revenant: "No...trying to protect you...from it."
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